Question:

Which Adventist colleges apart from Weimar and Griggs accept Amazing Facts College of Evangelism (AFCOE) hours as credit? Or does 'growing number' suggest that before there was one and now there are two?

I'm just curious. I have no idea what the AFCOE classes look like and am not making any sort of judgement in asking...

Thanks!

What pastor Batchelor says should call for explanation
and clarification. For example, are Pastor Batchelor's sponsors putting Amazing Facts financial base at risk? If so that would be an Amazing Fact! Tom

Just so we're clear. AFCOE is a four month program.

AFCOE-to-Go is a four day program. It "covers topics such as friendship evangelism, gospel presentation, answering objections, reclaiming lost members, cycle of evangelism, and more."

I went through the AFCOE program in 2001 and was provided college credit through Weimar. Weimar was able to offer credit through an agreement with Griggs. As Griggs is an accredited (I think) institution, the credits it provided were accepted by Southern (and, I imagine, all Adventist institutions of higher learning).

Sean,
Articulation agreements are not trivial within higher education. I'm curious because the press release is vague as to how these credits are accepted by whom. If your AFCOE classes met major requirements then I'm impressed by what the Amazing Facts College of Evangelism managed to do- that's no small accomplishment.

On the other thread we're talking about the future of Adventist education. Considering the independent nature of Weimar and Ouachita Hills, one is compelled to ask to what extent the renewed Weimar and recently founded Ouachita are part of that future and, more interesting for me, how Weimar and Ouachita envision their future. Don't hose schools resemble most Adventist colleges in their early years? What does that mean for Adventist education broadly and Weimar (Ouachita also) specifically?

Also, Griggs is indeed accredited. Good school.

. Colleges accept a limited number of marginal courses as a recruitment tool.Acceptance of marginal and/or off-beat courses, even in state supported schools has become a major source of income. Transfer students are highly regarded since the greatest decline is between the first and second year of college. Bring-em back is a great recruitment slogan--transfer credit in (soft or off-beat courses) below a minor is considered good strategy to fill the empty spaces left by departing Freshmen.

The history of Weimar is more predictable that its future. One hopes it will morph into the full family of SDA academies and colleges. Never-the-less there are roots that tempt one to think it could also go the way of Oneida 1848--it has a lot of 1844 mind set including assumptions of perfectionism.

Tom

Jeannieb43

Having been on the Weimar campus and listening to the young college students discussing their future plans, I can tell you that the medical/nursing/physical therapy courses at Weimar are NOT accepted as transfer credits at any college. These poor students -- all of whom are delightful, dedicated Christian young people -- didn't seem to know in advance that their credits would not be accepted in an R.N. program anywhere else--whether Loma Linda or a California State nursing program.

Most of these students are Eastern European immigrants--wonderful Christians, with charming personalities. But they hadn't been informed that their time at Weimar might not count toward their ultimate medical educational goals.

It tends to throw their immigration status into turmoil, plus costing them many hundreds of dollars which they can't recoup.

A very sad commentary indeed. I think you understate the costs in dollars and certainly in career time and effort.

It would be one thing if Weimar would train and then hire their trainees to serve as salaried employees to a medical evangelistic outreach rather than cut them loose to free lance, which in reality, as you state is to abandon them without recognizable credentials to serve. Tom

Indeed, this union of purpose is a win/win for everyone involved. Admittedly, Weimar College (a component of Weimar Institute) has had an uneven history. I can only speak in terms of my tenure, especially in reference to other colleges accepting Weimar credits. PUC, specifically nursing and education students, accepted our students, stating that they were exemplary. SAC have accepted all credits. We sent several to LLU for medical degrees, which logically asked for several additional science courses--and the students are excelling in their professions. Andrews seminary dean told me to send all we could recommend because Weimar students were exceptional. Our campus was busy each sping when conference presidents came by for their interviews and future employment and educational secretaries picked up seniors who would work in their conferences. Many graduates now are employed in many conferences and they are a joy to watch from my point of view. We expect that this insistent on quality education will be a common trade mark for the renewed Amazing Facts-Weimar Institute future, especially with Dr. Neil Nedley as the new president. Cheers, Herb

Ho, Tom! I notice that you frequently employ the word, "perfectionism," apparently pejoratively. I don't know of anyone who uses that word except in discussing Platonic philosophy wherein a person may reach that place where there is no equal, etc. Or those in the Wesleyan tradition who considered "sanctification" to describe those who are not sinning! As you will notice in my books, I refer often to the NT use of teleios, which is often translated as "mature." This NT emphasis describes a person who is dedicated to growing physically, mentally, and spiritually, no longer a "babe", one who presses on by listening to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and the prompting of the Living Word to fulfill whatever he can in the time he has. In other words, a constant overcomer of those habits, traits, etc., that interfere with his "growth." Just like my tomatos that are green yet they are perfect tomatoes, still growing with a great promise of a really mature tomato in a few weeks. I am sre that you agree with what I am saying and that I am misunderstanding your use of "perfectionism." Cheers, Herb

Herb,
My good friend and former boss, Ryan Bell, is a Weimar alum. And I've had the chance to meet other Weimar folk- all were smart and and well prepared.

The release said- "Weimar College, in step with a growing number of Adventist higher-learning institutions, is now accepting AFCOE hours as course credit."

My question is are these AFCOE units being accepted as electives or does AFCOE have articulation agreements with Weimar and Griggs (and more?) which count AFCOE units towards major degree requirements?

I don't know if that question interests anyone else but it does interest me. La Sierra Univ. getting articulation agreements with state community colleges and universities was not trivial. Even Newbold getting articulation agreements with CUC, Andrews etc is not trivial.

I'm pretty sure most people read over the one paragraph on transfer units. It's not the most important thing in the world but it is something I'm curious about being within academia as a student and instructor myself.

I take it for granted that any accredited college, especially an Adventist one, will accept AFCOE units from an accredited institution. But the press release says "growing number". Since accredited units from AFCOE on Griggs transcripts would be accepted at any Adventist college from day one, I assume "growing number" refers to something else. That is, the press release intimates that AFCOE has articulation agreements with a growing number of Adventist colleges.

If that's the case then it's a big deal and it's worth bragging about.

Thanks!

I attended all but one of Dr Nedley's seminars at Arizona Campmeeting this June and found most of his research to be more homeopathic based versus tested within the medical system, scientifically based. He is interesting and obviously well spoken but somewhat radical in his approach to medicine. I am a registered nurse and I do not object to homeopathy, I simply have a concern that it is presented in a manner that appears "scientifically researched" and that to me is misleading and unethical. When an MD presents himself and his lectures as an "Internist" and does not stay true to his scientifically based profession with his presentations, the public is mislead. His advice of leaving toddlers in the sun for 20 minutes unprotected between the hours of 10AM and 2PM in the Arizona sun was dangerous and WRONG! That was only one of his radical ideas to get enough Vitamin D. I believe he lead people to believe a lie and showed his own unchallenged reasearch as fact thrown in with a few scientific studies. Are there any other doctor's and nurses out there beside me who have some concerns about his approach? I saw the "malpractice" light blinking over his head and the audience was swallowing everything he said, hook-line-and sinker.

As a former Weimar College student, I do hope that this alliance with Amazing Facts can keep a college program at Weimar. The location is great for that.
>Might Weimar consider becoming a low-cost SDA junior college?
>Will they consider full accreditation?
>Will the SDA conferences be involved & supportive?
>Would Weimar accept federal & state student financial aid?

I don't know who runs AMAZING FACTS, but I would like someone to tell me....
* is it Doug Batchelor, employed as a pastor by the Adventist Church?
* is it the Nth Californian Conference, allocating a ministry role to Doug B?
* is it an independent ministry?
and why doesn't their web site tell me who they are???

and something else I cannot understand
* why are they reclaiming lost conservative fundamentalists like 3ABN and Weimar?

I hope someone can answer these (for me) perplexing questions.

thanks WD - I was too have been wondering about AMAZING FACTS.

Herb

Sorry I missed your response until today. It must have been the "crash". I also seem to have misplaced your book "Why Jesus Waits" It was right next to "The Shaking of Adventism" by G. Paxton. and my trade edition of Great Controversy. So I will have to limit my "defense" to page 366 of "The Triumph of Gods Love". The heading of the second column reads: "Prefect in Christ" There rather than a discourse on Righteousness by Faith the author writes, in part, "Now while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ." (Great thought) But the author continues: " Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: ' The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.' John 14:30 Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble."

Herb Your thesis from the gitgo has been in defense of the above statement. The bottom-line of your theology is that Jesus is waiting until no sin can be found in the final generation. To me that smells of perfectionism. An odor that is highly offensive to me and from what I read in Scripture to God.

Recall the proud Pharisee "I thank thee God I am not as other men are!"

Other than a lesson in semantics--Your blog still hold tightly to your original hypothesis. To be declared perfect and to be made perfect are two entirely different states of being. I think the Church had a big todo over that with R. Brinsmead at one time. Of course Bob has had at least 3 if not 4 positions on end-time theology. For now, my hope and expectations are found in I Cor. 15. If Jesus waits so must I. Of Course there is an entirely different view. "Could it be that the Father did His part in the Covenant of Redemption, and Jesus did His part in the Covenant of Redemption, but the Holy Spirit has failed to live up to His part in the Covenant of Redemption? To change a single generation is a mightly big task--why sometimes we can't even keep a college afloat--a tiny sample of an entire generation. Jesus waits because of His reasons, not ours! Tom

Herb

Ifound Why Jesus Waits" I had miss filed it next to Black's Law Dictionary.

In addition to the previous entry, I would add only by page number several portions that I think you reference in support of a Perfect Final Generation. Page 10 second and third paragraphs. page 14 quoting Signs of the Times May 10, 1899

Page 16 quoting S. N. Haskell last sentence 4th paragraph. Page 33 First paragraph and third paragraph. Page 38 4th paragraph Page 45 paragrah 3. Pages 47,48 quoting Bourdeau and Prescott. Page 52 footnote quoting Chris's Object Lessons page 69 (very close to the Great Controversy quote above)

Page 58 paragraph 3 in which you boldy state that some generation even ours might be the one that vindicate to the universe by being worthy of the "latter Rain" .

Herb

We differ on this point. The entire universe, including Satan acknoweldge that Christ vindicated His Government at Calvary. Yes of course, our insistence that we do it ourselves is the only road block to closure.

I have the assurance to wait. I think there is Scripture that encourages us to "Wait upon the Lord". I think that includes not trying to figure out His reasons or His timetable.

If I were to characterize your theology it would be a take off on a current commercial. "There ain't any bugs on me, There ain't any bugs on me. There may be bugs on some of you mugs but there ain't any bugs on me!" Tom

Weimar is right "up the road" from me and I had a niece who taught there for several years and am interested in the new ownership. Can we get answers asked here about its affiliation with the GC, local or union conferences, and Amazing Facts? Are they funded, either partially or more from official denominational funds?

The educational program sounds a little "funky" with the possible misperception of students as being fully accredited. How can a four-month course get any accreditation? How can anyone receive sufficient medical experience in a short course, sounding like naturpathy or homoeopathic concepts? If the other SDA colleges are willing to accept such credits, how will those be viewed by other higher institutions of learning?

Having a pathologist roommate for 60 years, and two nurses and nurse-practitoner in my immediate family, I have always been skeptical of anything but the best medical experience for myself and with the internet, there is the ability to check on such treatments. Sometimes, "tincture of time and a little neglect" can "cure" many ailments.

As to the exposure to sunlight mentioned above, this is WRONG! This is what we parents were told
60 years ago: expose your infant to lots of sunlight. WRONG! There is a very fast rise in melanomas today, all attributed to overexposure to the sun and sun tanning booths--sun worshipers.

While the old-fashioned hydrotherapy recommended by EGW and others 100 years ago were the best of remedies available then, we have advanced light-years in medical knowledge. Simple remedies of heat or cold can aid many aches and pains, but the possibility of overlooking or missing serious conditions should be seen by a medical doctor. Fortunately, with a nurse-practitoner daughter near me, she can write prescriptions or oversee family medical problems, often saving a doctor visit.

Amazing Facts is an official ministry of the Northern California Conference with the President of the conference serving as their Board chair. Their official constituency includes the Northern California Conference Executive Committee plus others. Doug Batchelor is the Pastor of the Sacramento Central Church but is paid the same pay scale as a Speaker/Director similar to Voice of Prophecy and It Is Written which he deserves to get given his greater responsibilities. It's an unusual arrangement since a large part of his responsibility is to Amazing Facts but he's also a NCC pastor. Amazing Facts began as an official ministry of Chesapeake Conference. When they moved to Sacramento, part of the arrangements were that Northern California Conference would be their official sponsor. If talks had been successful for 3ABN and Amazing Facts joining together a couple of years ago, one possibility was for this newly joined organization to be a North American Division ministry but talks broke down.

Weimar had begun discussions with WASC about accreditation a few years ago. When Weimar closed, they were down to less than 20 students. If they were to receive federal or state student scholarship funds, they would have to be regionally accredited.

Some Adventist colleges have articulation agreements with some self-supporting colleges or programs such as Souls West, a ministry of the Pacific Union, that specifies which courses will be accepted and for what programs.

Sandy Caban said:

His advice of leaving toddlers in the sun for 20 minutes unprotected between the hours of 10AM and 2PM in the Arizona sun was dangerous and WRONG!

Really? I've heard of some interesting work on UVA and UVB that is suggesting that the time for the least chance of developing skin cancers is high noon. Late in the evening or early morning has higher UVA to UVB ratios, with UVA implicated in the development of skin cancers via DNA damage. Most sunblock does not block UVA, just UVB preventing sunburn, but not necessarily the DNA damage of UVA. Doctor Neadley may indeed be right on several points in this respect. There is an entire industry in the medical profession treating osteoporosis, which only benefits the health practitioner and the pharmaceutical industry, with very little benefit to the "patient". Sunlight is important in osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is not a calcium deficiency disease. It very well my be a protein ( particularly animal protein ) excess disease.
Elaine Nelson said:

While the old-fashioned hydrotherapy recommended by EGW and others 100 years ago were the best of remedies available then, we have advanced light-years in medical knowledge.

I'm curious where you think we has medical care that is light-years ahead of the past? We have progressed in many areas. Certainly trauma care has significantly improved. But if you look back, a century ago, you find that if you made it out of childhood and its infectious diseases, and did not get the infectious diseases in adulthood such as TB, you had a chance for a good long life. Today we see more cancer and heart disease, and it is not because we live longer. We have an explosion of diabetes and obesity going on. Breast cancer incidence is much higher now than 100 years ago. We undergo many procedures which have very little benefit to the patient in terms of longevity, such as coronary artery bypass (CABG). Researchers in Univ of Cal. San Francisco, and also the Clevland Clinic (the birth place of CABG) saying that simple plant based diets can prevent and reverse heart disease, and yet, some would call this radical thinking. Same thing with prostate cancer and perhaps breast cancer. And at the same time, reverse diabetes, hypertension, obesity, decrease the risk of stroke, reducing arthritis, and on and on. EGW said in Ministry of Healing, an abstemeous diet for a month or two would convince most sufferers, that the path to health is on or self-denial.

It turns out, that diet and exercise, sunlight, and proper use of water is probably the best medicine for most of our chronic diseases today.

A. Way

Regarding Adventist healthcare...Ellen White lost and John Harvey Kellogg won. Follow the money...

Dear Ortho-

Straight, simple and wrong. I suggest you follow the map from Battle Creek to Loma Linda, then to Kettering, and then to Orlando, etc. I'd switch brands to Post-Tosties if I were you. Tom

P.S. I had the good forture to meet John Harvey Kellogg, be a guest in his home, and to tour his "hospitl". It was built on a grand scale. After the Army took it over during WWII it never regained any significant role in health care delivery or bear even a shadow of its former glory or stand as a competator to LLU. Both institutions are man made and were or are blessed by God. LLU as a creation of man has the possibility of sharing the same fate as Battle Creek. We pray that faith, and common sense will see it otherwise. Tom

Tom,

Have you read 'John Harvey Kellogg, M.D.' by Richard Schwartz? How about 'Ministry of Healing' by Ellen White? Is Adventist Health a system centered in prevention and natural methods of treatment...or is it a system centered in acute care, drugs, and surgery? Has Ellen White's vision of healthcare been faithfully implemented by the Seventh Day Adventist Church? What happened to the sanitariums? Has Adventism built a fence at the top of the cliff...or run an ambulance and hospital business at the bottom of the cliff? Does fame, fortune, and power have anything to do with the direction of Adventist Health? Actually, everything is probably fine. After all the bottom line is the bottom line...even for a non-profit. I don't have a problem with making money...even a lot of money...but when it comes to people's bodies and souls...the bottom line should be people's bodies and souls.

You are very lucky to have met Dr. Kellogg, and stayed in his home. I am envious. Really. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be John H. Kellogg's in the world...it's just that the Adventist pioneers(some of them anyway) envisioned a better(though less profitable) way to care for the human body and mind. My bias is that conventional medicine, with the exception of emergency and non-preventable situation medicine, is corrupt as the hot place...and I'm not talking about Arizona. It is big business based upon maximizing profits...not on minimizing sickness, pain, suffering, etc. Why put yourself out of business by being too good? That wouldn't fly in the boardroom, now would it?

Ortho

By the way, I am an Orthodontist by trade and an Academic Health Center Administrator by profession.

Richard Schwartz and I were classmates at E.M.C. He is retired about 5 hours drive North of Augusta. We have visited only once since his retirement. I have read Ministry of Healing through and through. I own a new copy since my original was worn out.

I believe E.G. W. had some good counsel. But the healing arts did not die with her. Rational medicine is of God not Satan. Men and women are plagued with sin and greed. The Health Care System has more problems than John Harvey Kellog, you, me, or the medical and fiscal officers of our health care system can solve. Yet, in times of need, I seek professional care from those, I know and trust. Ortho--sin doth abound but Grace doth much more abound. Hang in there!

If one would to stack up each profession: Ministry, Law, Medicine, etc. I think you would find that medicine stands head and shoulders above the others. That does not mean we do not have miles to go before we sleep. If you want to know how we got where we are in organized medicine read Califono's anaylsis of about 14 years ago.

In closing, I haven't treated a patient in 21 years--so don't blame me entirely for the current situation or promote E.G.White as the final solution. She promoted rational therapy up to and including 1915. Would you see a solution in returning to 1915 medicine? Tom

P.S. While a medic in the South Pacific I saw a remarkable improvement in recovery as soon as anti-biotics were introduced and as soon as whole blood could arrive in usable condition. As Chief of Dental Services as Children's Hospital, I have seen premature babies of less than 3 pounds not only survive but grow into normal adulthood.

There is more than enough to cry over, there is also much to be thankful for. I am a great grandfather for the second time. A 6 pound 11 oz. Jackson Thomas Zwemer. He is perfect. Would it be he entered a perfect world. I await that day with great anticipation. Even So Come Lord Jesus. Amen.

A. Way said:

"It turns out, that diet and exercise, sunlight, and proper use of water is probably the best medicine for most of our chronic diseases today."

Living with a pathologist for 60 years, plus working with analyzing medical charts for more than 9 years, I would beg to differ. What do you classify as "chronic diseases"? Sunlight is the prime cause for skin cancers, and only in the far northern countries is that lack observed.

It is true that for simple conditions, simple remedies may suffice, but for those who rely on those when a serious condition may be overlooked or ignored, it can be disastrous.

There are numerous medical conditions that WILL NOT respond to hydrotherapy, diet, or exercise.
I shouldn' have to name them but what about the congenital and familial diseases? Pete Snow has just died of familial colon cancer. When there are several early colon cancers, no diet will eliminate this; there are lung cancers that are not due to smoking; there are numerous cancers for which no causative factor can be found. Too many people have tried these simple "curative" remedies such as diet to "cure" cancers and avoided recommended therapies.

Hypertension, a condition of most people at advanced ages, is not, by all means, cure by any of these "natural" therapies. The discovery of antibiotics has saved millions of lives of those who formerly died.

For very simple (does a patient always differentiate between the simple and serious conditions?) diet and exercise may be of great benefit.

I agree that we are "eating" our way to early graves in this country, but thank God for the physicians and other professionally trained healthcare professionals. Would anyone here wish to return to the days of the old sanitarium remedies and refuse the newest medical diagnostic and treatments offered? Thank God for the many physicianp-specialists who have made my life more enjoyable and extended it also.

Why is longevity so much longer than 100 years ago?

Why the hostility toward teaching responsibility? How about promoting responsibility in all areas of life...not just in health? Obviously, modern drugs and surgery medicine is not going away anytime soon. But, how about a parallel health system devoted to the prevention of all manner of calamity(war, murder, accidents, suicide, rape, crime, destitution, mental illness, physical illness, substance abuse, corruption, etc.)? What I am alluding to would be somewhat more prestigious than Okey Dokey Hills Sanitarium Systems(ODHSS).

Commenting on Elaine's comments:

Living with a pathologist for 60 years, plus working with analyzing medical charts for more than 9 years, I would beg to differ. What do you classify as "chronic diseases"? Sunlight is the prime cause for skin cancers, and only in the far northern countries is that lack observed.

Blocking Vit-D (lack of sunlight) may be causing more cancers than we prevent of skin cancers. Most skin cancers are not life threatening. Sure, we hear about the deadly melanoma, but it is by far not the most common type of skin cancer. And data suggests that high noon might not be the most dangerous time, but later in the afternoon when the risk of sun burn is lower, but UV-A out of balance with UV-B causing DNA changes and cancers.

There are numerous medical conditions that WILL NOT respond to hydrotherapy, diet, or exercise.
I shouldn' have to name them but what about the congenital and familial diseases?

Congenital diseases not not the major cause of death. Heart disease (acquired) and cancers are, and most of these can be attributed to lifestyle - mostly what we eat. Dr. DeBakey recently died, the famed heart surgeon. We laud the skills of heart surgeons. There is no doubt that valve replacement surgery and procedures that fix congenital defects is truly amazing surgery. But most heart surgeries are not of these types. Most heart surgery is bypass surgery, and the brain injury that happens with this kind of surgery (perhaps 50%). Medical therapy is just as likely to extend life as CABG surgery. And lifestyle change is by far the better way to go. Most CABG surgery is for intractable chest pain. But most of these patients have not been told or offered the effective lifestyle changes that can relieve the symptoms of angina in just a couple of months.

Hypertension, a condition of most people at advanced ages, is not, by all means, cure by any of these "natural" therapies.

Most people of advanced age should proably not have their blood pressure lowered to "normal" as the incidence of morbidity/mortality goes up with too agressive therapy. It is the young people with high blood pressure that need lifestyle intervention to prevent the problems of which hypertension in older age is only a sign.

The discovery of antibiotics has saved millions of lives of those who formerly died.

While it is true that antibiotics have saved many lives, mine included, if you look at the trends of infectious disease in the 20th century, you will find that these diseases greatly diminished before the introduction of antibiotics. This do to better sanitation and clean water. We have the engineers to thank for that. Thank you Semmelweis in the 19th century for hand washing!

I agree that we are "eating" our way to early graves in this country, but thank God for the physicians and other professionally trained health care professionals. Would anyone here wish to return to the days of the old sanitarium remedies and refuse the newest medical diagnostic and treatments offered? Thank God for the many physicianp-specialists who have made my life more enjoyable and extended it also.

We don't hear the horror stories that our medical tests can cause. Many unnecessary tests done with false positives, which then lead to most invasive tests with their co-morbidity.

Dr Dennis Burkitt, was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine, has taught on the importance of fiber in the diet, not just to prevent constipation, but to prevent serious digestive disease such as diverticulitis, appendicitis, and gall bladder disease, and others. As a missionary surgeon in Africa, he noticed that the local people ate a diet rich in fiber, and simply did not contract bowel cancer, and a host of other debilitating digestive diseases. He rapidly came to the conclusion that these diseases were caused by a lack of dietary fiber. Most colon cancer is not hereditary, but lifestyle. Breast and prostate have major lifestyle causes. We have hit the major cancers. Most lung (not all) are smoking related. Most heart disease is lifestyle related. That is the major cancers; lifestyle...

Why is longevity so much longer than 100 years ago?

That is the perception. Understand then you speak of longevity, you are talking birth to grave. What killed most children were infectious diseases. If you survived childhood, and later escaped other infectious diseases, such as TB, you had a very good chance to live to a very old age. My Great Grandfather was less that 2 months shy of 100 when he died, early in the 20th century. Grand mother was 99. Grand father 80, and would have gone on for a long time if he did not have emphysema from smoking. In fact I have many relative going back 2 and 3 and more generations that were in their 80s and 90s. My cousin died at age 3 of polio. Great Grand ma's sister early 30's of TB. The scary thing is that TB is coming back, and we don't have good methods of treating the multi-drug resistant strains.

The reason we Americans need so much medical care is because of our lifestyle. And as we export our lifestyle to other countries, they are also getting our diseases. How about this? According to an analysis published in the March 17, 2005 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, the current generation may be the first generation not to outlive their parents, due to health issues relating to our current lifestyle.

Perhaps a more important reason for have a healthy lifestyle is so that we have clearer minds in order to understand and know God. And maybe that is the real reason the Adventists should push health reform. Otherwise, what good is it to live an extra 10 (or more) years - ultimately?

A. Way

Tom,

In the heat of battle, I forgot to say, 'congratulations for the addition of Jackson!' The cup is more than half-full, isn't it?!

Also, if I ever need a Baboon Heart(I'll take a double-shot of cyclosporin...and watch-out for that ABO barrier!) or a Proton Accelerator(under the watchful eye of the DOD!)...I sure know where to go!

It's just that I have a soft spot for the Zane Kime's of the world. He had something to say about sunlight and conventional medicine, didn't he? I wish he were still with us...

Thanks Orhto

But I fail to see the rationality in taking pot shots at serious attempts to win the fight over disease. Zane Kime's fate is one we all share sunlight or not. Tom

Of course if we could have grabbed that apple out of Eve's hand we would have been spared a lot of grief.

I've had a good life, I wish the same for you and little Jackson even if it takes both peanut butter and protons. Tom

The new and improved Weimar / Amazing Facts should create a new name from the two names. If they use "amazing" and "Weimar", they could make all sorts of fun names from the letters. Such as

I’m mega war Nazi
I raze, gnaw, maim.
Zaire gamin’ maw
I mean I’m raw, Zag.
Ezra Wang, Miami
Image: Warm Nazi

Tom,

I fail to see the rationality in taking pot shots at my serious attempts to win the fight over retentiveness(the leading cause of the leading ills). The proctologists need all the help they can get...

Eve was deceived with occult 'wisdom' by a reptile with the ability to speak and fly. These snakes have been running the show ever since...

Ortho

I am sorry if I offend you, but you throw so many pots in the air it is difficult to restrain onesself.

I now know you are really sincere and trying to make your point your way. So I will let you be. Have at it brother, and God Bless. You will not get a peep out of me. Tom

"That is the perception. Understand then you speak of longevity, you are talking birth to grave."

I was under the impression that is how longevity is measured.

The many anecdotal and exceptions given, still does nothing to the statement that our lives today are extended and longevity is improved. The introduction of antibiotics has greatly improved our lifespans and, rightly mentioned, the infant mortality rate is far better than 100 years ago, when parents had many more children in order to insure some would live to adulthood.

I totally agree that lifestyle is, by far, the best way to insure a longer life. However, the simple fact that we lose elasticity of our arteries as we age, and the stressful lifestyle that most of us live, has an equal affect of shortening our lives. My immediate family readily agree that their father and husband's need for two CABGs was due to stress as his cholesterol was always low and vegetarian diet with weight well within limits, and most of his relatives lived much longer than he did.

One need only look at the few full-length pictures of the GC hierarchy to see that the "General Conference Front" is alive and well.
(Tom will recognize this label.)

Approaching my 84th birthday, I'm blessed with quite good health, but praise God for the ability of the orthopedic surgeons to replace three joints--osteoarthritis that is age-related and no known diet or exercise can prevent that factor; in fact, heavy running and jogging is implicated in joint arthritis. There's always two sides to every coin.

Just an observation with no statitical or other significance.

John Kellogg boasted that with his lifestyle he would live to be 200. He died in his mid to late 90's. Of course, he died in his mansion with round the clock private nurses.

I had an Uncle who was a sailor on the Great Lakes, He drank, he smoked, he chewed tobbaco, he womanized, He lived into his mid 90's and died in the Merchant Marines nursing home surrounded by round the clock salaries nurses. Tom

News Release 7/16/08

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Dr. Neil Nedley to Lead Weimar

SACRAMENTO, CALIF. Neil Nedley, M.D., author of Proof Positive and Depression—A Way Out, has accepted the call to become president of the new Weimar Center of Health and Education (formerly called Weimar Institute).

Doug Batchelor says, “I can’t imagine a more thrilling development for the future of Weimar! His addition to this new partnership between Amazing Facts and Weimar is a match made in heaven. It will bring a powerful infusion of life and energy into the biblical concept of health evangelism.”

Dr. Nedley is a graduate of Loma Linda University Medical School and is a full-time practicing physician in internal medicine with an emphasis in cardiology, gastroenterology, preventive medicine, mental health, and difficult-to-diagnose patients.

A respected author and chair member of numerous national and local medical boards, Dr. Nedley has lectured extensively around the world on nutrition, lifestyle, depression, stress, and physical and mental health. He has also been a featured guest on numerous national television programs and radio stations.

Nedley explains, “I am very excited to work with Amazing Facts’ strong media and evangelistic ministry. This partnership with the new Weimar will not only help disseminate vital information concerning physical and mental health to the world — it will help thousands apply life-changing physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual truths to bring about dramatic, positive change.”

Doug Batchelor adds, “Dr. Nedley’s visionary understanding of the relationship between good health and positive Christian spirituality makes him a perfect fit. His energetic, visionary leadership and kind personality impressed our board and staff with the confidence that this is God’s man for this mission. We are excited about what the Lord can do through him at Weimar.”

Dr. Nedley currently has a private practice located in Ardmore, Oklahoma, where he lives with his wife Erica and four children. He will assume his new duties in Weimar, California, as soon as plans for the transition can be finalized.

Last time I heard Amazing Facts say something similar to "a match made in heaven" was when God and EGW were leading them to take over 3ABN.

While going to school at Weimar I heard from friends who worked in NEWSTART and from my mother that the worst patients were SDA. I'm think I might be able to see why now. :D

Elaine said:

The many anecdotal and exceptions given, still does nothing to the statement that our lives today are extended and longevity is improved. The introduction of antibiotics has greatly improved our lifespans and, rightly mentioned, the infant mortality rate is far better than 100 years ago, when parents had many more children in order to insure some would live to adulthood.

I think you read right past me. You believe that anitbiotics are the reason for decrease in infant mortality? No, the decrease in infectious disease was coming down before the discovery of antibiotics because of improved sanitation and clean water. And the deadly infant diseases are reduced by vaccination, which again it not antibiotics.
Elaine said:

I totally agree that lifestyle is, by far, the best way to insure a longer life. However, the simple fact that we lose elasticity of our arteries as we age, and the stressful lifestyle that most of us live, has an equal affect of shortening our lives. My immediate family readily agree that their father and husband's need for two CABGs was due to stress as his cholesterol was always low and vegetarian diet with weight well within limits, and most of his relatives lived much longer than he did.

You claim a low cholesterol by did not quote any numbers. Physicians (particularly pathologists who run the labs) quote "normal" values for Americans which are only normal for those who develop coronary artery disease. There are counties in China where cholesterol values average in the 80's, where we call normal 170-200. Coronary artery disease in non-existent in these counties. Take the same people and feed them a western diet, and they then get the same diseases as westerners. Beyond the cholesterol issue, CABG in 80% of people does not extend their life. Ditto for angioplasty. This presents some interesting informed consent issues for physicians.
Elaine said:

...praise God for the ability of the orthopedic surgeons to replace three joints--osteoarthritis that is age-related and no known diet or exercise can prevent...

Truly, for the person who have joints so destroyed that it is impossible to walk, joint replacement surgery is amazing. However - degenerative arthritis is not an inevitable result of aging. See this article. In it, you find there are populations that do extremely heavy work and do not develop degenerative arthritis. Unfortunately, we bring our own ills on ourselves more often than we like to admit.

There is an inference that maintaining a healthy diet will prevent many diseases such as osteoarthritis. No one can be certain today of its causes. I have always been a vegetarian, eating a Mediterranean diet. None in my family has had osteoarthritis of such a crippling nature. Diets, while good, do not always lead to a disease-free life.

There are other factors, not well established, that cause an aging disease in a person, while another with the same lifestyle and diet may get cancer, or other life-threatening conditions. If that were the "cure" we would never see any such diet-conscious SDAs ever dying; and we know that they do. No one is going to extend his life past 120, and few past 100 years of age.

Unforseen conditions appear when least expected and thank God for the many excellent medications and surgical procedures that have improved the quality of length of life for man of us. To refuse the benefits of what is known and offered is to acknowledge that there is no need for such advice and treatment in our lives.

Ask Tom, another senior citizen my age, if he is not grateful for what the medical knowledge has offered him.

As a former student of Weimar College, I've followed this latest transition with curiousity, but perhaps not much hope that the new leadership will be able to transform it into a viable institution of learning.

Weimar has a beautiful, if rundown, campus and grounds - and could definitely be used for something outstanding if it could get leaders with business sense and a feasible long-term strategy. But it is plagued by so many perception challenges that I don't think it has much hope of joining the accredited Adventist colleges any time soon.

I received an acceptable education at Weimar for my first 3 years of college, before transferring to finish my BA at Southern and then go on for my master's at Andrews University. But that was largely due to the few outstanding teachers who actually had higher education of their own, and had gone to mainstream or even public universities for their master/doctoral degrees. Those teachers were fabulous and in their subjects I was very well-prepared for classes "outside the bubble".

Some of my closest friends came from my time there as well. But in my observation there are three kinds of students who attend a school like Weimar:
1) mature students coming out of a life of addiction - drugs, sex, gangs, alcohol, whatever - and are seeking a utopia experience where they will be exposed to minimal temptation

2) students from good families who attend either on their own choice or because of their parents' desire, but who stay for a year or two and then move on to a mainstream university to complete their education (like I did and the friends I made there)

3) students who are "lifers" - they aren't there merely for a "safe" introduction to college, they truly plan to wear floor-length skirts, let the staff choose whom they date, drink cashew milk and have a 9 PM curfew for the rest of their lives...

I made good friends there, learned what it had to teach me, and then moved on. I appreciate my experience there chiefly because there were so few students and so many things to be done - so I was able to have freedom of involvement and student leadership in early college beyond the chances I'd have received elsewhere.

But I also learned that despite its facade, Weimar was no utopia. There was an equal or perhaps even greater proportion of drugs, abuse, and scandal there as any other school I've ever attended. That's the risk we run with having humans around, I guess... :)

And no, it is NOT true that Weimar college credits are accepted at all Adventist colleges. Southern Adventist University used to accept them straight across, but has tightened that in recent terms. I worked in undergraduate admissions for 2 years at Andrews University, and the do not accept credits from Weimar. I saw quite a few young transfer students have to completely repeat the educational years they had spent at Weimar. One theology student had graduated from Weimar's pastoral program, and was not granted academic entrance into the Andrews Seminary, despite good grades. He had to go back and do his undergraduate work over again.

It is an unfair marketing gimmick to advertise that Weimar is "accredited" without saying which parts of which tracks have which levels of accreditation. More than a few outstanding students have been grossly misled in their academic careers by less-than-full disclosure of Weimar's credit transfer potential.

Nor do they fully explain that even if you graduate with a "degree" from Weimar - the majority of students (except pastors who are hired by a select few conferences) can't get viable jobs with their diploma. Although my experience there was fine, I'm glad I transferred when I did.

The situation in Weimar, in mind (I've seen the place), is very much like what one might find in a mission college, such as one I'd attended. It's a good place to get started, but one needs also to go elsewhere to complete one's formal preparation and for wider exposure. I view Weimar and similar independent efforts by consecrated Adventist educators as part of the "Challenges..." all other institutions that receive official denominational support and recognition face.

Elaine wrote:

There is an inference that maintaining a healthy diet will prevent many diseases such as osteoarthritis. No one can be certain today of its causes. I have always been a vegetarian, eating a Mediterranean diet. None in my family has had osteoarthritis of such a crippling nature. Diets, while good, do not always lead to a disease-free life.

Many Adventists claim to be vegetarian. But what is the definition of vegetarian? To many that includes fish. To most it includes a lot of animal protein and fat such as dairy and eggs. As one author puts it, milk is just liquid meat. The Mediterranean diet is good in spite of the fact that in can include a lot of free oil. While true, time and chance happen to all (Ecc 9:11), we can sway the probability strongly our way with what we eat, or do not eat.

It is true Elaine, we will all die. Some die lingering in misery for many years, often with no clue how miserable they are do to Alzheimers. What I see in those who maintain a healthy diet is that the quality of life is better, and when they do die, it is often after a short illness, with little suffering. Agreed, no diet conscious SDA will live forever because of the diet alone. And is the optimal diet (which most SDAs do not adhere to and I suspect you also do not) purpose so we can live 10 years longer? I think not. What is eternal life? John 17:3. And it is a lot easier to know God with a clear mind, thus the all the health rules and avoidance of stimulants and alcohol. SDAs are some of the hardest to convince that their diet is not healthy.

Just curious: what do you call the "optimal diet"? And would you suggest that it be followed by everyone?

Elaine asks:

Just curious: what do you call the "optimal diet"? And would you suggest that it be followed by everyone?

Optimal, ideal, appropriate, reasonable, prudent, best, planet saving, what ever... Our diet should be starch bases, rice, wheat, potatoes, cassava, corn, one of those or other starches, and add a few vegetables and a little fruit. Kept it simple. All protein and fat requirements will be met, and the starch will satisfy hunger and provide energy. This is the best diet to cure ("CURE") obesity, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, the best diet to eliminate inflammatory arthritis, and for many auto-immune diseases. Also think anything vascular - kidney disease, stroke, coronary artery disease, peripheral artery disease, GERD, hemorrhoids, etc... And the list goes on and on. Weimar is famous for this kind of diet. And it has been shown over and over to work. Sure, if you have not eaten this kind of diet all your life, and your joints have been destroyed, then joint replacement surgery is wonderful. And still Ecc 9:11, time and chance happen to all. We do not have access to the Tree of Life. We do have access to the One who supplies all life.

Does not anyone wish Weimar and Amazing Facts well on this venture? I offer congratulations and best wishes to this venture for a most productive future, and look forward to benefits from this combination of efforts and talents. It would be nice if armchair quarterbacks became involved in doing something rather than creating negative winds around those who step up to the plate and try.

JoAnn, I do wish them well, and even made a caricature of Nedley / Batchelor to commemorate the merger.

Caricature as an encouragement? Wierd. "Adventists of many faces" by a man of many faces? I understand backhanded compliments -- remember, I have been in public school teaching for over 30 years with union tactics aplenty which included caricatures to push their viewpoints about administration/parents/government/conservatives in a "I am nice" way portraying caricatures as "nice." Caricatures are not nice.

How about having posts about new Adventists? Let's see how the old boys club (which Spectrum Magazine is beginning to look to me) of born-into-it Adventists may tear new folks apart by caricatures or e-mail posts to distroy what precious things we have found such as our enjoyment of 3ABN personalities, health message, and Adventist doctrines. Life is worse from where we came so I invite you out there. This wimpering will turn into full blown wailing with a few worldly experiences -- I guarantee it with a 100% guarantee ;) I don't want to go back or lose what I have (to gain the thoughts you have). If one is not happy with Adventism -- politely leave. That's what they do in the Sunday churches. Problems solved for everyone.

Caricatures are like acid -- not good for digestion. An entire site devoted to indigestion. That's a wow. I may have to go to Weimar for help with the indigestion -- and take Amazing Facts training while I'm there. Sounds fun to me. My nephew, who has found the Adventist health message a great help, wants to vacation at Weimar. He is a dirt biker who could lift most Adventists with one arm. So, new people are coming in with more zeal than those who have been in the church for centuries -- hum, that sentence . . . seems like I have seen it somewhere before . . .

JoAnn ;)

As for the "optimal diet" it is better if one use whole grains that furnish both starch and protein needs: whole wheat, oats, stone ground corn, brown rice, should be the basis for pastas, rather then the usual refined flour.

It is interesting that the recent long-term survey of several popular diets showed that the Atkins diet--heavy on fats in meat and dairy lowered cholestorol as well as more weight loss. However, for vegetarians, no more than 30% of calories could be from fats (olive oil, nuts and low-fat or no-fat dairy). Participants in the study also had slightly lower blood pressure readings than on the other diets in the study.

A low-carb diet (which would lessen starches) and increased vegetables and fruits is a better diet, IMO. Too many starches have caloric value but lesser amounts of vitamins and minerals. The diet suggested above appears to be too high in carbohydrates.

The other diets in the study were the Ornish and low-carb zone diet.

Elaine said:

A low-carb diet (which would lessen starches) and increased vegetables and fruits is a better diet, IMO. Too many starches have caloric value but lesser amounts of vitamins and minerals. The diet suggested above appears to be too high in carbohydrates.

You have been suckered by all the false information those with $$$ interests have been promoting, but you can not be faulted unless you have been diligently studying the literature you can't decipher all the garbage information out there. The most successful societies are those that are based on starches where they are trim and healthy. Eating a whole food, starch based diet will give you all the nutrients you need.

Just one example, in South America, orphaned infant children ages 8 months up, these are children in their most important growth age, were feed a diet of mostly potatoes and they thrived. How much protein does one need? 5% of calories from protein is sufficient! Potatoes supply that need. Human breast milk is 5% protein. Does a grown man need more that 5%? No. Fat, one needs very little fat. Less that 10% of calories need be fat. Beyond that it is just extra and contributes to those lovely muffin tops. What is left? Starch (read complex carbohydrate). Carbohydrate is what the body likes to burn. It takes 2% of fat energy to store it as fat. It takes 30% of the carbohydrate energy to convert it to fat and store it as fat. The fat you eat walks around tomorrow.

Vitamins and minerals - how much does one need of these? Minute amounts. A recent study showed that men whole took a multi-vitamin a day, had an increased mortality from prostate cancer if they had prostate cancer. We don't need megadoses of vitamins. Unless you are trying to sell vitamins, then you want everyone (else) to take them. Otherwise they are a waste of money and they can be dangerous to your health.

Atkins diet - Robert Atkins when he died, was obese, and had heart disease. Is that what you want?

Yes - I know the study you talked about, they claimed low fat diets don't work. That is because a diet of 30% is not low fat. The study was doomed from the beginning. This was a very damaging study for our health because it gives false conclusions and justifies eating a high fat diet.

Just an interesting little tidbit - there are 13 vitamins - 11 come from plant sources, one is not a vitamin but should be considered a hormone (Vit-D) and it comes from Sun exposure, and the last (Vit-B12) comes from neither plants or animals, but from bacteria. One would think that that should be a hint as to what kind of diet we should eat. We can get all of these we need on a simple starch based diet. And the simpler the better.

Bon appetit

Ms. Henkel,

That does it! I'm not buying my art supplies from JoAnn Fabrics any more! ;-)

In seriousness, I appreciate your taking time to provide a critique (though something with more substance than "causes indigestion" would be more helpful to me).

Now before you are too hard on me for my acid trip causing artwork, can I just point out something about people? We use caricature all the time. "An entire site devoted to indegestion"? That's a wonderful caricature of what I do (in fact I'm sorry I didn't think of it). A dirt-biking nephew "who could lift most Adventists with one arm"? That's a brilliant caricature! Unless that's really true, in which case I would love to get a photo of him -- he would make a great cartoon!

The difference between your verbal caricatures and mine (aside from the fact that what I do takes a little more time to execute and a little more thought to create) is that mine is visual rather than straight verbal. Otherwise we're both just exaggerating our perceptions of reality, a little sanctified satire.

I was serious when I said that I wish Weimar / Amazing Facts well. I don't hold any ill will toward them. I was also serious in thanking you for the critique. It is more important than compliments in my drawing book. I would like to re-post your critique on my blog.

AWay, the information on diets is in the New England Journal of Medicine today. I was only giving the information that the research has shown. Check if out when you disagree with those findings.

Also, there is a subjective thing going on here with satire that is different for different people

At least with the committed, multi-generational young Adventists, we love our church like a family member. This relationship is sometimes different for newly committed Adventists.

In some extended families, like mine, we give each other a hard time every once in awhile just because we really care for each other. Now my brother's new girlfriend is not going to razz my parents like we four boys do, because her relationship is different.

Even some multi-generational Adventists may not enjoy it as much, but consider our relationship of generations of church service and deep love for our church community and what it means. Not everyone has to like it or even understand it, but at least know the context.

I wish some Wiemar could be injected into Loma Linda, and some Loma Linda injected into Wiemar. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the realities of each. But it's easy to sit on the sidelines and notice things. Hospitals are necessary and appreciated, and the church would not be where it is today without it's hospital system. But I have a hunch that Ellen White would be most comfortable with the Weimar approach. I could be wrong.

I would like to see a prevention facility rivaling the size and budget of Loma Linda. Ideally, the prevention facility would be located in a rural environment which would never be encroached upon by a city. It would specialize in preventing all types of misfortune and calamity...including war, accidents, disease, crime, bankruptcy, mental illness, etc. It would really be comprehensive.

The staff would be highly educated, highly motivated, and very sophisticated. There would be a mixture of scientists, philosophers, theologians, educators, lawyers, consultants, fundraisers, etc. There would be no turf battle with Loma Linda and Adventist Health, because this prevention facility would attempt to prevent, but not treat, illness and injury.

Financing would be a huge problem. Consulting fees probably wouldn't go very far. The bottom line always is the bottom line, isn't it? Anyone have an inside track to the Gates Foundation? Come to think of it...I attended a church which received a pipe organ with the help of a large Bill Gates donation, thanks to a relative of his. Hmmmm.

This county is wallowing in "think tanks." While the one suggested might be virtuous, finding financial support is entirely too iffy.

A wizened pathologist one said, when repeated mentioning of other physicians that he should write a paper on whatever interest they had at the time, replied "Go for it, I haven't the time.
Good suggestions are a dime a dozen, but to actually accomplish and produce something is a far different thing. The old saying, "Put your money where your mouth is" could apply here.

We have plenty of money to wage war, rebuild other countries after we destroy them, perform surgeries, pay lawyers, pay for clean-ups after catastrophies, etc...but no money to prevent the calamities from happening in the first place. I guess I'm just too unsophisticated to get it...stupid me...orthodoxymoron.

Elaine wrote:

AWay, the information on diets is in the New England Journal of Medicine today. I was only giving the information that the research has shown. Check if out when you disagree with those findings.

I'm aware the this new NJM article from last week. Again - they do not know what a low fat diet is. It is stuff like this that sets back read health reform. I suspect my friend John M. will do an article on this NJM article real soon now.

Elaine - you don't trust everything in medical journals now do you? Follow the money. 30 years ago, most research was done in universities. Then we got Reagan which cut back funding which was picked up by the Pharmaceutical industry, but the research was still done in universities. That changed in the 1990 until you have what we have today with the majority of research done by for-profit (profit) research companies funded by the drug industry. Chech out John Abramson's work here: Overdo$sed American - the broken promise of American Medicine Abramson is a highly respected family physician from Harvard. You can hear a talk by him given at the American College of Lifestyle Medicine's 2006 meetings, sponsored by Loma Linda University (they can do some things right). You can find it here: Lifestyle Medicine. While you are there, listen to the Keynote speech by McDougall, but do skip the first 13-14 minutes of the "introduction" Dr. Kelly, which if it is still on that file will put you to sleep. But McDougall will not put you to sleep. Isn't it interesting that the non-Adventist physicians are now leading the way of health reform.

I am very skeptical of both the medical, but especially the pharmaceutical industry. Before taking any new prescribed meds I do a thorough check on the internet, but if it's a new medicine, I prefer not to be a guinea pig and elect generics because they are cheaper and have been on the market for at least 17 years.

After being prescribed Fosamax and taking it a few months (even when no bone density test had been performed recently, and previous ones were good), I did take it, but after the findings, and even newer findings of the many conditions caused by it, it became obvious that while it was prescribed for osteopenia, it was causing many other and worse conditions.

However, I also do not reject all medical studies out-of-hand as those about diets are far less dangerous than on pharmaceuticals.

We both agree, I believe, that a prudent low carb, vegetarian diet, with fruits, nuts and no meat (which I never eat)is the best for most people for maintaining good health and normal weight. It has paid to be skeptical in health and medical advice, as well as in other areas.

Not being familiar with the Weimar diet, I cannot comment on them. Perhaps you can?

OK, OK, I have to speak up.

I have experience with Atkins. AND WITH CHIP (a vegan diet). I lost about 40 pounds with the Atkins diet. My cholesterol plummeted and I felt and looked great. (I bought some new clothes!) My daughter talked her dad and me into Hans Diehl's CHIP program. We graduated, and I was sold on a vegan diet. I went vegan. Guess what happened?? Anybody want to venture a guess?? Hmmmm?? I gained ALL that weight back and more yet. I am now as big as a house on the vegan diet. And yes, I do exercise -- I walk 2-3 miles every day.

I am going back on Atkins. I cannot stand myself at this weight. I will limit the meat and dairy, however. But for me personally, those carbs are poison.

I am modifying the Atkins diet. Very little meat and very little dairy and no eggs. But I simply cannot eat the breads and rice and potatoes. Carbs, in my case, must be severely limited.

So we are not all the same, are we.

And another brief comment. Modern medicine is great. It saves many lives. But we all need to take responsibility for our own health. Doctors are not gods. We need to live healthy lifestyles, limit junk foods, exercise, and get plenty of sleep. Get regular checkups with an M.D., and avail yourself of modern medicine if you need it. I know I have died at age three, if it weren't for modern medicine.

Claire

Elaine said:

After being prescribed Fosamax and taking it a few months (even when no bone density test had been performed recently, and previous ones were good), I did take it, but after the findings, and even newer findings of the many conditions caused by it, it became obvious that while it was prescribed for osteopenia, it was causing many other and worse conditions.

Osteoporosis is a money machine - and is very beneficial - for the pharmaceutical and doctor industry, but not the patient. The cost/benefit ratio I recall is that you need to treat something like 60 women for 4.4 years to prevent 1 hip fracture with Fosamax. So, does Fosamax work???? I don't think so. The diagnosis of osteoporosis uses the Dexa scan (BMD - bone mineral density), and the "normal" is a 28 y.o. women, in their peak reproductive years. By doing this, it makes 50% of women at menopause, "patients". In other words, the normal aging process becomes a disease when this is the normal course of events. Does the BMD test predict fractures? The answer is - NO. The whole scheme is designed to maximize profits and hint, the patient does not profit. There is nothing like exercise and the right diet.

We both agree, I believe, that a prudent low carb, vegetarian diet, with fruits, nuts and no meat (which I never eat)is the best for most people for maintaining good health and normal weight. It has paid to be skeptical in health and medical advice, as well as in other areas.

You use "low carb" and fruit and plant diet in the same sentence - interesting. No, I would advocate a high starch diet low in fat and protein. Low protein by American standards. Again - human breast milk is 5% protein by calories. That should provide a good idea of the over all need for protein and it is not much. So that would be 80% carbohydrate. But again, carbohydrate as starch which provides a longer absorption time, unlike simple sugars.

Claire said:

My daughter talked her dad and me into Hans Diehl's CHIP program. We graduated, and I was sold on a vegan diet. I went vegan. Guess what happened?? Anybody want to venture a guess?? Hmmmm?? I gained ALL that weight back and more yet. I am now as big as a house on the vegan diet. And yes, I do exercise -- I walk 2-3 miles every day.

Vegan diet - - lets see, Coka-cola and potato chips is a vegan diet. When you say a vegan diet, you really have not said at all what you eat. A vegan diet can be very high in fat and protein. A starch based diet with protein and fat at 10% or calories each or less, is the diet that works for most. CHIP "allows" up to 20% fat, no? But this number is very easy to exceed, and when studies like what recently came out in the NJM showing that "low fat" diets which were 30% fat does not work, I would say that "no dah". One sage told me once, there were no obese people in concentration camps. The only way to add weight is for energy intake to exceed energy output. There is no magic here. It is really hard to OD on potatoes. But but very easy to OD on potatoes with margarine, and "soy-supreme", and "Worthington chile", and still be vegan. And guess where the calories come from? Hint - not the potato. Exercise is great and has many beneficial effects, but if you walk 3 miles per/day, you will burn between 300-400 calories. One pat of margerine is 100 calories. A 12 oz can of soda can be 180 calories and is down is 60 seconds. What you eat can negate exercise very quickly.

My Dad who is working in Liberia this month as a something something from Loma Linda University (it's all classified. OK not really - I don't know what he is doing)was told by his physician that he needed to back off of things like potatoes, corn, starches in general that contribute to his high glycemic index (which is a medical code word for bad something or other).

My Dad eats vegan (mostly) and cut desserts out of his diet along with high-glycemic foods. He rides his bike to work regularly (though not to Liberia).

So...what's the point? Well, I suppose it is to say that starchy things might be inappropriate for some people because of their high glycemic content.

Jared - a physician making diet recommendations? That is scary. How much education on nutrition do most doctors get in medical school?

As for the glycemic index, check this out, eat an apple, you get a rise in insulin and then a fall. Make apple sauce, and you get a faster rise, then a larger dip in the insulin. Make apple juice, and the swings get wild. The key? Eat foods in their most natural state.

And the potato? Populations whose diet is mainly potatoes are fit and trim. There is more to the story than just a sugar number that is missing...

A. Way, this is a witch hunt! You have an illness. Well, then SURELY you have eaten wrong, you ignorant, intemperate slob!

That, in essence, is what you are saying.

Truly disgusting.

jemand - I'm sorry, did I hit a sore toe? I'll try to remove the log out of my own eye. Come let us reason together. You heard mine reasoning. Tell me yours.

As I've stated before on other threads I am not a Christian, but I do appreciate Jesus rebuke of the Pharisees and Rabbis who blamed those ill in their community for "sinning" and thus causing their pain. Jesus showed love, not condemnation, and corrected their attitude, one which, unfortunately, has mounted a comeback in the adventist church.

I know it is psychologically comforting to believe that you have the corner on "dietary truth" and that if everyone lived *just like you* no one would be sick. Because now you don't have to worry about being ill yourself; if you can pinpoint the "cause" of others' illnesses as being self-inflicted somehow, you can assure yourself you are not at risk. However, not every belief that is psychologically comforting is true.

While I will grant that certain activities (smoking, for example) will put you at a statistically higher chance of a particular disease, you cannot work backwards and say "YOU are sick BECAUSE you eat dairy." Statistics just don't work that way.

And ignoring the real malnutrition suffered in the third world while under the dietary model you extol, which often causes childhood death or illness following weaning, while also dismissing osteoporosis as "simple aging" is so ludicrous that I am not even going to bother going into detail about your so called 'facts.' (Others have been doing a decent job on that already) I'll just point out the problems with your approach.

A Way

Very interesting conversation. I agree with you, btw. I've devoted my professional life to poor, developing countries. Two-thirds world! So, please correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a nutrition expert, as a rule of thumb I start with about 1 gm of protein, plus or minus 0.5 gm, for each Kilogram body weight. Up to 2 grams/KBW but only rarely. Seventy grams of protein only for a normal/IBW (ideal body weight) 70 kilogram American? Carbohydrates are protein sparing so I fill up the rest of the total daily caloric requirement with mostly carb (not low) and a minimum of oil/fat.

About Weimar, I believe in the kind of alternative it offers in regard to education, spirituality and health.

jemand said:

And ignoring the real malnutrition suffered in the third world while under the dietary model you extol, which often causes childhood death or illness following weaning,

Malnutrition in children in 3rd world countries, such as kwashiorkor, a protein deficiency, is directly related to a lack of total calories. These children are literally staving to death. If they get enough calories, all deficiencies reverse. That can just be potatoes.

jemand said:

while also dismissing osteoporosis as "simple aging"

Osteoporosis is a real disease. It is also greatly over diagnosed at the expense of the "patient" in the U.S. It is interesting that rural Chinese that eat a traditional diet, do not get osteoporosis, on a diet that is around 7% protein and mainly starch bases (rice), and a daily average calcium intake of 500 mg. Why do Americans have a higher hip fracture rate when we have such good nutrition? Our drug treatments do not greatly help decrease the absolute risk of a hip fracture, yet that is what health care pushes on us. BTW - I was wrong on my statistics I quote above on osteoporosis, so I need to update those statistics: 81 women would have to take Fosamax for 4.2 years to prevent one hip fracture, and for women ages 70-79, Actonel (risedronate), a medication similar to Fosamax, had no effect on the number of hip fractures. Regular exercise is more effective than Fosamax in decreasing hip fractures, by a multitude of effects, stronger bones, and stronger muscles and better balance which decreases falls which is the most often precipitating cause of a fracture.

Dude. I never knew potatoes were so awesome. It's potato chips only for me, from now on. Most of the nutrition, twice the taste.

To clarify: osteoporosis and osteoarthritis are two distinctly different conditions.

Personally, I hope Amazing Facts can be and stay more mainstream than it was under Joe Cruz and his "Creeping Compromise" approach, and the likes of Weimar and Uchee Pines don't go to extremess with diets and remedies that embarass us SDAs.

Recently had friends that went through Uchee Pines regime, only to subsequently have the wife die of liver cancer. I'm not saying that there is a connect, but we need to make sure there isn't with good knowledge, medicine, and nutrition, not being on the fringes of where we should be.

Douglas

As someone who spent many years in supporting ministry before going back to school and getting a graduate degree at Andrews, I am glad they are giving the educational program at Weimar another chance. I am sure it is not perfect, but neither is anyplace else here on earth.

Facilities such as Weimar, Wildwood, and Uchee Pines provide a valuable perspective. They help us as a body to regain insights we may have lost about health and preventive medicine.

We do need evidence-based nutrition and medical care, but we also need to regain the emphasis on prevention we once had as a body, without judging but as a healthier way to live.

Scientific Christians sometimes need a renewed emphasis on their spiritual roots, and conservative Christians sometimes need to see the balance in statements about nutrition and health in the inspired writings. Both groups need to study their chosen field in depth, not superficially, and in light of the most current and well researched scientific information, not just one study, but looking at the weight of evidence.

Laura

Laura, thanks for how you couched your response to my post.

Story, my wife has been diagnosed with Ciliac Disease/syndrome, a wheat allergy.

Guess what she and I and alot of other people ate as SDAs as youth, when she may have had it even then, gluten, which is essentially wheat. Yet where was the study of this disease and the allergies to what we fed our young people freely and without question, because it wasn't meat!!!!!

Douglas

We forget that what EGW wrote over a century ago conformed only as far as the medical science had advanced. Today, we should be very careful not to discard reputable medical advice to turn backward to 19th century medical practices, some of which was utter nonsense: masturbation, phrenology, depletion of "life forces" and many more which have no place in medicine or good health today.

Elaine - don't discount some of what she said so quickly. phrenology she condemned, so I'm not sure why you include that in your list. But on the topic of masturbation, is it totally benign? There are two antagonistic principles at work, God's way of others-centered love, and Satan's way of selfishness, disregard for others. Masturbation is nothing if not self-centered. I offer the following quote:

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {FLB 84.7}

As for "reputable medical advice", I know many women that have been given advice from their physician that they are "sick" and need to take medication for their weak bone (osteoporosis). And yes, I know that osteoporosis is not osteoarthritis, I have been using osteoporosis only as an example where nearly the entire medical community has been duped. Perhaps we need some of EGW warnings today against certain medications. See this article from the British Journal of Medicine, published this January of 2008 or in PDF form

You've got to be kidding me. Masturbation myths have been blown out of the water for years now. There is NO prohibition even in that blessedly puritan book, the Bible. There is NO evidence that it is any more harmful than eating or breathing. There are good reasons to believe that it can be healthy. Let's face it. Sister White got it wrong, her and the rest of the Victorians. There be a lot of Xtians who need to grow up about sexuality. It happens. Yeah. Masturbation is selfish. So is eating. So is reading a book alone, by a nice fire, with a cup of Irish coffee. So is being so obsessed with the human race that you would rather die than lose them. There be ultimate selfishness. Without selfishness, no one would be alive. Surely most people want to live because they, personally, enjoy the act of living? You want the complete cessation of personal desire? Check out Buddhism. Nice philosophy, actually.

It is time for some reputable - and why not Advnetist - institution to resolve the tension between wheat intolerence (in all its forms incl Ciliac Disease)and a vegan / vegetarina diet (largly wheat dependant).
I have suspected a strong connection for some time. My wife and both my daughters are sufferers. But that is not evidence... there may be other constraints.
I would appreciate a scientifice comment.

Douglas - not sure why you directed your comments to me, but the truth about God will go forward in spite of the "church".

Neimand, there are many things we all struggle with. (Matthew 5:28 NIV) But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. I suppose there are things people can do with a totally blank mind, but not many... The murderer and the gossip end up the same, without God's healing remedy. We abhor the murderer and love to gossip. The underlying principles are still the same. Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind.

I going on a long vacation. Adios all. It has been interesting reading ya'll...

Warren - see this article by a vegan proponent on celiac.

Now I'm gone. bye all.

Warren and Douglas,
There is some evidence that celiac disease may be related to an inability to break down the protein gliaden in wheat and that the tendency is genetic, but is not expressed in all who have the gene. I do work some with those who have this. If you Google Pacific Health Education Center in Bakersfield you will find our phone number and address- I would be happy to email or whatever to help with some ideas.