Therefore, Jesus entered into the most holy place (or in the presence of God), with his ascension and not in 1844.

If Christ's death was the sacrifice represented by the one on the Day of Atonement, why are Adventists so justified in suggesting a second aparment ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary, when Hebrews says He went right before His Father, to the right hand of God's throne. How does this all jive with an 1844 IJ? Another Great Disappointment???

I would suggest that the ultimate temple that needs to be cleansed is not a building in heaven:

“In the cleansing of the temple, Jesus was announcing His mission as the Messiah, and entering upon His work. That temple, erected for the abode of the divine Presence, was designed to be an object lesson for Israel and for the world. From eternal ages it was God’s purpose that every created being, from the bright and holy seraph to man, should be a temple for the indwelling of the Creator. Because of sin, humanity ceased to be a temple for God. Darkened and defiled by evil, the heart of man no longer revealed the glory of the Divine One. But by the incarnation of the Son of God, the purpose of Heaven is fulfilled. God dwells in humanity, and through saving grace the heart of man becomes again His temple. God designed that the temple at Jerusalem should be a continual witness to the high destiny open to every soul. But the Jews had not understood the significance of the building they regarded with so much pride. They did not yield themselves as holy temples for the Divine Spirit....In cleansing the temple from the world’s buyers and sellers, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from the defilement of sin,--from the earthly desires, the selfish lusts, the evil habits, that corrupt the soul. ‘The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver.’ Mal. 3:1-3.

‘Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.’ 1 Cor. 3:16, 17. No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. But He will not force an entrance. He comes not into the heart as to the temple of old; but He says, ‘Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him.’ Rev. 3:20. He will come, not for one day merely; for He says, ‘I will dwell in them, and walk in them; . . . and they shall be My people.’ ‘He will subdue our iniquities; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.’ 2 Cor. 6:16; Micah 7:19. His presence will cleanse and sanctify the soul, so that it may be a holy temple unto the Lord, and ‘an habitation of God through the Spirit.’” Eph. 2:21, 22. (E.G. White, DA, 161)

There is a Negro Spiritual that has a theme: "There's a man goin round taking names.!" Taken largely from the book of Ezekiel. That pretty much sums up the "Evangel" of Seventh-day Adventism. Not much different that the Xmas song> "You'd better be good, you'd better not cry, Santa Claus is coming to Town!"

Not a shred of the Gospel in the entire interary of traveling evangelists. Why not rejoice, Jesus Christ our Elder Brother is our Judge and advocate.

Now of all things we want to argue that if God gave someone an itch for their brother--He had better sanctify it in the sacrament of marriage. Sleep with whom you will but keep the Sabbath or you'll be marked as a beast.

How in the name of all that is holy can the same voice defend a final perfect generation?

How disorient can one get? Tom

many many people are at the church many many years,but
they do not know how celestial sanctuary works.
you and me have a advocate at the heaven,but this situation
don't give us right to sin.because i was a satan's victim,
i had been kidnaped for satan,christ paid the ransom,
now i am free,my freedom is to worship that one who has
saved me of satan's hands.but i go on living in this world
i go on being attacked for evil;but when i fall down into
of some trap that satan has put in my way ;i am victim,
i made mistakes because fell down into of a trap put there for devil.as victim i have a advocate at the heaven,because
i don't have pleasure in my mistakes,i feel no good,i feel
bad,then i come to my advocate jesus and say to him;
forgive me i plead ,because i have been letting you sad.
i shall not make this anymore,when i have pleasure in my
mistake,when i seek my sins when i am not victim ,i don't
have advocate.i have advocate only when i accept the sacrifice
of christ at the cross.and i become a new person,having not
pleasure in the sin.victim has advocate, anyone who has willing to sin with pleasure has not advocate.
every one needs to lose the pleasure for sin,cause it is the only way to get an advocate named jesus.
laercio

Oh, the elephant in the room! This and next week's Sabbath School lesson directly deal with our only distinctive doctrine, Christ's high priestly ministry following the year 1844.

The when and why of our SDA's traditional understanding of Christ high priestly ministry was admirable tackled by Dr. Blazen's thoughtful and careful exegesis of the book of Hebrews. While his commentary did not specifically deal with our doctrinal position on this subject, he did point out that the writer to the Hebrews encouraged the believers of their day to see the cleansing and purification imagery of the Day of atonement in their current time frame.

Dr. Blazen is to be commended for placing the emphasis of the book on the practical application for the situation facing the Christian believers in the latter part of the first century. By addressing their needs in a pastoral fashion, the writer to the Hebrews gave encouragement and counsel that can be applicable to believers today. Speaking in their cosmological thought frames and understanding, the writer led the early believers to the understanding that even if there were no longer a literal sanctuary service in Jerusalem, the meaning and greater reality of that service had been fulfilled in Christ.

Our early pioneers needed that same encouragement and hope. For them a literal sanctuary service taking place in heaven fulfilled that need. While we today no longer need a literal, sandbox illustration, the knowledge that our elder brother, one like ourselves, stands in the very presence of God can give us security and hope as well.

Thank you, Dr. Blazen.

Donna wrote:

While we today no longer need a literal, sandbox illustration, the knowledge that our elder brother, one like ourselves, stands in the very presence of God can give us security and hope as well.

What aspect of our elder brother standing in the presence of God brings us security?
AW

AW I can only speak for myself personally. I don't need a priest to carry his blood and present it to God on my behalf. I don't need a priest to plead a sacrificial offering in my place. My security comes from the fact that my brother, a human being like myself, is enjoying the life-giving presence of God and promised that where he was I, a human mortal, could be as well.

One way to look at the whole system is that our High Priest invites us to follow Him into the presence of God. Of course, along the way we realize that the High Priest is none other than God - "If you've seen me you've seen the Father." To believe that God is just as gracious and kind as the One we have seen and touched (our "High Priest") creates in us a desire to boldly enter into God's presence.

“And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. This is the new, life-giving way that Christ has opened up for us through the sacred curtain, by means of his death for us. And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s people, let us go right into the presence of God, with true hearts fully trusting him. For our evil consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.” (Hebrews 9:19-22 – NLT)

“So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace…” (Hebrews 4:16, NLT).

And finally, the mission of our High Priest was to reveal the character of God (John 17:3-6). But we are also priests as described many times in Revelation and elsewhere. Not surprisingly then, our mission as priests is to copy our Great High Priest in the same mission:

“It is the duty of priests to teach the true knowledge of God." (Malachi 2:7)

Hebrews is only well understood by those who lived under and during the Temple services. When Christians of the 20th and 21st century seek to find meaning for themselves, they must return to the study of the original sanctuary and its meaning to the worshipers of that time.

Historically, it makes sense to recognize why the analogy and metaphor of a sacrificial system was made. No longer does that have meaning for ordinary people today, unschooled in the Adventist unique interpretation--a response to the Great Disappointment experienced in 1844 when their predictions proved fruitless. Why must Christians today understand and know all about Judaism in order to understand "Christ and him crucified"?

Those who grew up with this illustration, given such great importance as to build exact models replicating every bit of furniture and its use, find that it has nothing whatsoever to do with their understanding of the Gospel nor to their ultimate assurance of salvation. It is an idea whose time has long passed, IMO. Just as someone who would initiate a long and dull sermon on the importance of all the levitical laws and their relevance today, it is about as essential and relevant as naming the early patriarchs, chronologically.

So, Brad, you are saying that there was no 1st apartment ministry up to 1844 like EGW's IJ was suppose. Before Ford came along, heavenly geography was taught in our schools, I know I attended. It is unBiblical, and thank you Desmond Ford for pointing it out.

Now you come along and claim it was all about the throne of the heart. You are a Neurologist, you believe that literally?? Come on, which is it to keep the SDA from another Great Disappointment.

" Come on, which is it to keep the SDA from another Great Disappointment?"

Look for another one any day now. Oh, the utter shame of being "missled" again!

Tom,
"Why not rejoice, Jesus Christ our Elder Brother is our Judge and advocate."

This kind of argument always alarms me, though perhaps you were talking tongue in cheek? But I've heard more than I care to of how we can be confident in the judgment because God is both attorney and judge--even to the point that one preacher made it sound like a Mafia courtroom with the judge "bought off"!

Isn't one of the fundamental aspects of God that he is truly just? And what about the Accuser--wouldn't he cry "foul" at some point? No, we need a better picture of what is happening than a courtroom that is stacked in our favor and a judge that is biased!

Best, Jonathan

Donna wrote:

I can only speak for myself personally. I don't need a priest to carry his blood and present it to God on my behalf. I don't need a priest to plead a sacrificial offering in my place. My security comes from the fact that my brother, a human being like myself, is enjoying the life-giving presence of God and promised that where he was I, a human mortal, could be as well.

How many don't see it your way? How many need to have God appeased? Pay the price as it were... Donna - I like what you said!
AW

Donna and A.Way, the only problem, Donna doesn't make the celestial rules, does she?

RDS - Don't you get it? We have nothing to fear from God. That is the everlasting Good News. That this The Truth. If people could only understand that. I'm not ashamed of the Good News. It is the power of God unto salvation.

Yes, RDS - it's all about the neurology (HA, HA)!

The great controversy is a war over "hearts" and minds. As Dr. Blazen pointed out, the High Priest is associated with the day of atonement. And if you go back to read about the day of atonement it is all about cleansing the people:

“On that day the ritual is to be performed to purify them from all their sins, so that they will be ritually clean.” (Leviticus 16:30 – GN)

“…and perform the ritual to purify the Most Holy Place, the rest of the Tent of the LORD's presence, the altar, the priests, and all the people of the community. These regulations are to be observed for all time to come. This ritual must be performed once a year to purify the people of Israel from all their sins.” (Leviticus 16:33-34)

That concept is added to in Hebrews:

“Seeing that that first tabernacle was a parable (a visible symbol or type or picture of the present age). In it gifts and sacrifices are offered, and yet are incapable of perfecting the conscience or of cleansing and renewing the inner man of the worshiper. (Hebrews 9:9 – Amplified)

“But, how much more will the blood of Christ make our consciences clean from dead human efforts, so that we can worship the living God!” (Hebrews 9:14 – The Great Book)

Now answer the question posed:

"So, Brad, you are saying that there was no 1st apartment ministry up to 1844 like EGW's IJ was suppose. Before Ford came along, heavenly geography was taught in our schools, I know I attended. It is unBiblical, and thank you Desmond Ford for pointing it out."

Hi RDS,

I don't feel a burden to explain what was believed or was not believed prior to or after 1844. What do you think about the ideas that have been presented TODAY?

Warmly,

Brad

the question is;;;;;
is there a sanctuary at the heaven?
is there a place [building] at heaven as same as there was here in our planet?by any chance the old ritual has been abolished?how does work the sanctuary at the heaven?
nobody knows or somebody knows or somebody knows but has not
courage to speak the true?whom shall be someone with courage
to answer these questions?is there bread inthe heaven?
is there candlestick at the heven?is there incense at the heaven?what does have in the heaven a building[temple]or maybe
there is not a building [temple]?
what does god say about every thing regarding the sanctuary at heaven?someone does know the answers?
let's reach answers and not remaining figthing among us.
because the answers,they exist.
hoping
laercio

I believe you as a prominent individual at Loma Linda Univ are being evasive of a legitimate question to protect the SDA name. To skirt the issue reveals alot to me and people reading this from outside the church.

It is asked:

the question is;;;;;
is there a sanctuary at the heaven?

It is written:

(Isaiah 66:1 GNB) The LORD says, "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house, then, could you build for me, what kind of place for me to live in?
(Acts 7:49 GNB) 'Heaven is my throne, says the Lord, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house would you build for me? Where is the place for me to live in?
(Revelation 5:11 NIV) Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

If there is a sanctuary in heaven, it is not like anything here on earth. If God's throne is in heaven and the earth is his foot stool, it is certainly much bigger that we can imagine. And it can contain an innumerable mount of people! Do we not need to look at the sanctuary service and ask what does it mean? Is cleansing the sanctuary cleaning out some building? Dr. Cole has shown above that the cleansing of the sanctuary is really the cleansing of the believers. And does that not make sense? Should we not discuss this which has meaning TODAY?

Exodus 25:8 "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you."

Why exactly as shown???

Jonathan, Brad, A.way and Others and a PS. thanking Ivan for his good thoughts...as far as they went.

One of my favorite texts in Hebrews is not mentioned in the article or so far in this strand. It is Heb.10:14. The NIV correctly notes the Greek Present Passive Participle “being made holy.” By His offered and accepted sacrifice, Christ has brought into perfect/complete standing and acceptance those who accept Him by faith and “are being made holy.” (past action with active meaning)

Then, He sat down at the right hand of the Father as a "Priest/King after the order of Melchizedek" (not levitical) having turned away wrath from the guilty and satisfied His own/Father’s justice. He demonstrated He is "presently" just to justify all that trust in Him. They are reckoned perfect/complete and righteous as they are in the “process of being made holy.”

" But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb.10:12-14.NIV

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Rom.3:25-26.NIV.

pat

Hi RDS,

Outside of the Bible, no one who has helped me in my own spiritual journey more than EGW. At the same time, in my own understanding of inspiration, it does not stress me out to once in a while come acrossed something that I might disagree with in her writings - or at least feel that it could be expressed more clearly - or that perhaps there is greater light on the subject with the passage of time.

In fact, she even gives me permission to think along those lines:

"It is not safe for us as reformers to repeat the history of the Reformers in every particular; for after those to whom God gave light advanced to a certain knowledge, many of them ceased to be reformers. We must not for a moment think that there is no more light and truth to be given us, and become careless, and let the sanctifying power of the truth leak out of our hearts by our attitude of satisfaction in what we have already attained..." (3 R&H 173)

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1892

I don't mean to turn this into a discussion about EGW....

a.way
then can i understand that there is not a sanctuary at the heaven as same as there was on our planet?is there not in the
heaven bread ,candlestick,incense,and every thing else?
i think like you who needs cleaning are us.but how i understand when in churchs of ours pastors teaching about
sanctuary they say;when you confess you sins they are sent
to the celestial sanctuary,the question is;;;;can anything
to contaminate the heaven?to where were or are my sins sent?
can have some place in the heaven contaminated?
clarification itself is needful to understand the question
of sanctuary.what is true and what is fake about each
information that i receive in the churtch?when did i get
free approximation to god's throne before or after 1844?
because god's throne stay on the the most high holy place.
whom is the sanctuary in the heaven?
hoping
laercio

Brad is digging this hole, I'll let him continue.

Isn't this a uniquely Adventist problem explaining the work of a high priest? Do any other Christians wrestle over this arcane metaphorical description of a ritual designed solely for the Israelites? Should we not let it rest with them as their history rather than spending gallons of ink and reams of paper over something that is of no significance to our eternal destiny? Are Adventists the only ones who have written book after book on this one aspect of the NT and ignored the clear and plain messages within its writings?

Its importance can be compared to the medieval question "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

No hole digging here, RDS ;-)

You've previously accused me of being self-promotional by doing this, but I feel like this subject cannot be covered in a few brief paragraph soundbites....so, here is a link that discusses this subject in more detail:

http://www.godscharacter.com/index.php?topic=Leviticus

Now, a full day of traveling and who knows what kind of internet access there will be in Turkey!

RDS wrote

Exodus 25:8 "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you."

Why exactly as shown???
Posted by: RDS (not verified) | 19 June 2008 at 5:34

(John 2:21 NIV) But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
(1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV) Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
(Romans 12:1 NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.
(1 Peter 2:5 NIV) you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
(Revelation 3:12 NIV) Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
(Malachi 3:3 NIV) He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

What is the temple? Cleansing the sanctuary is not about a physical building. It is about restoring God's Kingdom into his people. Purging them of their sin. Creating new hearts and right spirits with in.

(Psalms 51:10 KJV) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(Jeremiah 31:33 NIV) "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(Hebrews 8:10 NIV) This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(Hebrews 10:16 NIV) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

And now EGW on the same topic in FLB 192:

And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. Exodus 25:8.
"I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God," "and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory" (Exodus 29:45, 43), was the assurance given to Moses.
In the building of the sanctuary as a dwelling place for God, Moses was directed to make all things according to the pattern of things in the heavens. God called him into the mount, and revealed to him the heavenly things, and in their similitude the tabernacle, with all that pertained to it, was fashioned.
So to Israel, whom He desired to make His dwelling place, He revealed His glorious ideal of character. The pattern was shown them in the mount when the law was given from Sinai. . . .
But this ideal they were, in themselves, powerless to attain. The revelation at Sinai could only impress them with their need and helplessness. Another lesson the tabernacle, through its service of sacrifice, was to teach--the lesson of pardon of sin, and power through the Saviour for obedience unto life.
Through Christ was to be fulfilled the purpose of which the tabernacle was a symbol--that glorious building, its walls of glistening gold reflecting in rainbow hues the curtains inwrought with cherubim, the fragrance of ever-burning incense pervading all, the priests robed in spotless white, and in the deep mystery of the inner place, above the mercy seat, between the figures of the bowed, worshiping angels, the glory of the Holiest. In all, God desired His people to read His purpose for the human soul. It was the same purpose long afterward set forth by the apostle Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit:
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

I think the pattern what was shown, was God true character. Jesus revealed God's character. We are to have Christ's character in us. And when we do, the sanctuary will have been cleansed. The Good News is all about the kind of God we worship and admire. A God for which we have no reason to be afraid.

okay brad cole and a.way.
then can i understand that there is not a temple at heaven?
anything needs to be clean in the heaven,so why is taugth;
my sins are sent to the heaven when i made them.
my sins are sent to the celestial sanctuary or not?
whom is speaking the truth;who speaks ;in the heaven there is a sanctuary or who say in the heaven there is not a sanctuary there?why do people have afraid to talking about this matter?
why our organization insist to teach that there is a temple
in the heaven like there was in the world?
i go on hoping somebody with courage to talking about it;;
laercio

A.Way,

Your misunderstanding in my opinion is on how the "temple is cleansed." Christ Himself cleansed the temple/sanctuary once for all.

Your text, " (1 Peter 2:5 NIV) you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."... is the fact that your spiritual sacrifices are acceptable "Through Jesus"..."the one believing in Him will never be put to shame."

It is not your "cleansed temple" but Christ's in your behalf that is acceptable.

As I mentioned from Heb.10:14 above having been reckoned as perfect we are to be "growing in holiness."

You say, "We are to have Christ's character in us. And when we do, the sanctuary will have been cleansed." So A.Way, you feel that you will be as holy as Christ was in order for the "sanctuary to be cleansed." This REALLY means A.way, that you will be justified by your deeds of law keeping that your sanctuary temple may be cleansed.

That is a completely different story than us "who are growing in holiness" having been considered/reckoned "cleansed" by the blood of Christ sacrifice already acomplished.

Back to the old Protestant/RCC issue that still is pertinent today. Is Justification by Faith Being "made righteous"(RCC view) or "reckoned righteous."

pat

mr gallangher has spoke in his commentary this way;
[the danger of sanctuary message,misunderstod,is to suggest
that jesus the good god has to battle with the father[the
angry and hostile god]in order to achieve our salvation.
in this way we reflect the charges of satan who condemned
god for being hostile and unforgiving,an unloving and
vengeful being who took pleasure in vindictive punishment
of erring creatures.we would do well to totally rejectsuch a picture.it was not to induce love in the father's heart that
jesus came and died,but because of father's love.]
oh fantastic gallagher's statement ;because i have someone
at the heaven who has healed me body and soul totally;i am
not more sick i have not fear of god, i love him with all
my strength because my advocate is my god,i have not fear of
the last judgment,because the judge is my god.
my jesus is the own sanctury yes himself is the temple.him self is the candlestick,himself is the bread himself is tabernacle of god with us humans being,himself is all the things.jesus's blood has cleansed me and now i am hoping
for him come back again and carry me to the heaven because
he is the only way the true and the life,jesus is a winner ,
i am a winner,a building there is not at the heaven but
jesus my sanctuary is there to look for me.
laercio

"Christ's high priestly ministry following the year 1844"

A "prophecy" for which

(a) the start date is not known,
(b) the end date is not known, and
(c) the end effect is totally undetectable

The start is not known, because (reading the Bible) we are not told that it starts at the same time as the 70x7's does

The end date is not known, because it is neither given nor does the basis (2300 somethings) work, because (a) the text does not say years, nor does it say days, nor does it even use the same phrase used in Genesis, and (b) it is the ONLY place 'prophecy' where one needs the 'day=year' invention

and everyone agrees that the prophecy predicts nothing visible on Earth in 1844 or there abouts

Yep, we definitely need to study that one, all right

Pat - I agree - Christ is the one who cleanses the temple. Did I say otherwise? I quoted this:"But this ideal they were, in themselves, powerless to attain." Christ does the work for us. We are the temple, we are the ones Christ is cleansing.

The whole sanctuary service and the tabernacle/temple are symbols, "Through Christ was to be fulfilled the purpose of which the tabernacle was a symbol". Symbols of what? The symbols of the whole system are numerous. And I think when understood, it is utterly amazing.

A.Way,

"Pat - I agree - Christ is the one who cleanses the temple. Did I say otherwise?"

Yes you are. As regards growth in holiness (sanctification)and your inward cleansing that understanding is like saying today Christ prays for me, eats for me and goes to work for me. How will that work for you?

pat

Guys, since 1844 i would have thought we had learn't some lessons by now. Is there a literal sanctuary in heaven . . . I don't think so. For what reason or purpose? I think Brad is right in the sense that God wants us to have our hearts and minds cleansed so that we are focused on our relationship with Him. He wants to dwell in us and use us to spread the great news of His love and commitment to offer a new life that will transend anything that we can either imagine or hope for. So don't worry about whether the sanctuary in heaven exists, or is one apartment or two, just be concerned for the cleansing of your our heart and introducing of as many souls as you can to our Great High priest.
regards
CML

Interesting thread!

I like what Laercio said concerning the temple. The burden of the earthly model wasn't to point us to some kind of structure in heaven...it was to point us to Jesus himself and what he has accomplished.

John says as much when he says that "...the Word became flesh and dwelt(pitched his tent/tabernacled) among us. And we beheld his glory, full of grace and truth." John is making a clear reference to the tabernacle in the wilderness... "Let them make me a sanctuary that I might dwell among them."
Jesus is the temple incarnate. He brought God's presence/Shekinah into the midst of humanity. He fully revealed what God is like. His person, his life and his death embodied what the entire cultus was about. God, through Christ, has made a way where there was no way, to deal with our sin and bring us back to him, through Jesus' death, resurrection, and now his continual mediation of his benefits to us.

This is why I like Fletcher's idea of the Day of Atonement service being centered on Calvary, and not a future date. He shows that the physical set up of the sanctuary reveals that the service, beginning in the Holy of Holies and outward to the people, and then through the banishment of azazel bearing sins out of the camp, went from east to west. He then equates this with what God in Christ has done for us at the cross "...as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

This was totally God's work in Christ. Whenever the gospel of a crucified and risen Savior has been and is preached, it is to elicit the responce of repentance and confession that is described in the Day of Atonement ritual. Recieved, it brings all the benefits that only Jesus can bring... sins completely forgiven and forgotten, peace with God, his presence restored into our lives and into our midst, etc. Rejected, it brings judgement. This has always been the case, before and after 1844. The gospel always carries salvation and judgement.

It's also interesting, that after Jesus returns, John also writes, "...I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." No more sin means no more need of mediation to sinners...which is the point of the temple service. The good news, is that the tabenacle of God himself, Jesus, will live forever with us, and we shall see his face.

Praise Him!

Thanks...

Frank

Pat - another metaphor, sin is like cancer. Or Great Physician (Jesus) has a cure. The cure is not instantaneous, as the remedy must be applied and over time the cancer is purged.

The problem sinners have is that they focus on the sin. The Good News is all about God, the kind of person he is. Our focus should be on God. Acts of sin are not the main problem. Loss of trust in God is the main problem when be substitute the trust about God for a lie. We need to purge the lies about God and see the real gospel. Truly knowing God is eternal life.

Johnathan,

I don't know to which blog of mine you are referring. I don't think I have one in this thread. My position is that of Paul in Romans 5 which is the context for Hebrews. If Adam sinned so did all of his issue. If Christ lived a perfect life and died in Adams's stead, then we as Adams's issue are frew from condemnation upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Creator, Redeemer, and coming King. No fancy foot work just plain divine math. Tom

hi frank
i liked too much about your commentary.
i do not know why our organization do not change
their minds.because when have started the working
of mediation in the heaven?before the crucifixion or after?,
the work of mediation has started since the lamb was dead?
then when the lamb was dead?before our creation the lamb of god was dead,then why these teachings about mediation became
known after jesus's death and not before?
before jesus's death christ was in the heaven as my
great high priest,but why after his death they start
teaching about mediation of jesus?
because at cross jesus did materialize to the unirverse the
planning of god to take us out of demon's hands.it was shown to moses in the montain the planning of salvation,it was the ritual of sanctuary which would teach all the things about the true sanctuary ,and this true sanctuary is jesus my savior.1844 jesus has not gone to the most high great holy place ,because jesus always was there .i believe at sanctuary
of corse,but whom is he [my sanctuary]?it is him jesus.
laercio

hi frank
i liked too much about your commentary.
i do not know why our organization do not change
their minds.because when have started the working
of mediation in the heaven?before the crucifixion or after?,
the work of mediation has started since the lamb was dead?
then when the lamb was dead?before our creation the lamb of god was dead,then why these teachings about mediation became
known after jesus's death and not before?
before jesus's death christ was in the heaven as my
great high priest,but why after his death they start
teaching about mediation of jesus?
because at cross jesus did materialize to the unirverse the
planning of god to take us out of demon's hands.it was shown to moses in the montain the planning of salvation,it was the ritual of sanctuary which would teach all the things about the true sanctuary ,and this true sanctuary is jesus my savior.1844 jesus has not gone to the most high great holy place ,because jesus always was there .i believe at sanctuary
of corse,but whom is he [my sanctuary]?it is him jesus.
laercio

hi frank
i liked too much about your commentary.
i do not know why our organization do not change
their minds.because when have started the working
of mediation in the heaven?before the crucifixion or after?,
the work of mediation has started since the lamb was dead?
then when the lamb was dead?before our creation the lamb of god was dead,then why these teachings about mediation became
known after jesus's death and not before?
before jesus's death christ was in the heaven as my
great high priest,but why after his death they start
teaching about mediation of jesus?
because at cross jesus did materialize to the unirverse the
planning of god to take us out of demon's hands.it was shown to moses in the montain the planning of salvation,it was the ritual of sanctuary which would teach all the things about the true sanctuary ,and this true sanctuary is jesus my savior.1844 jesus has not gone to the most high great holy place ,because jesus always was there .i believe at sanctuary
of corse,but whom is he [my sanctuary]?it is him jesus.
laercio

Unfortunately, there IS an elephant in the room...
But it is a trojan elephant, put by our pioneers and left in our camp to maintain their undertanding of the future.

We could just drag it outside our walls, and move on, but we are immobilised. Frozen in time - because we need to be right, and we need to have been always right.

Well, here is present truth: we have not always been right!

Any image that explains God is never reality: just a vehicle for understanding. Lets leave the Heavenly sanctuary, and the investigative judgement to those who needed them. What we need is grace.

Bye bye elephant, we are moving on. (well, some of us)

Laercio:

You stated the following on 20 June 2008 at 7:37:

"... because when have started the working
of mediation in the heaven? before the crucifixion or after?,
the work of mediation has started since the lamb was dead?
then when the lamb was dead? before our creation the lamb of god was dead ..."

I would like to support what, I believe, you are suggesting by paraphrasing what Ellen White says regarding this, coupled with some statements from the Bible. If you need documentation, I think I can dig those out for you:

First: Ellen White describes the cross as "a window for our dull senses in order that we might understand the suffering God was subjected to since the inception of sin in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God." She also tells us that "the suffering of Jesus did not begin nor did it end with his death on the cross."

Second: In the book of Revelation, we have a statement describing Jesus as the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world." Notice the use of the past tense. When? Two thousand years ago? No, but rather from the foundation of the world!

Third: Most translator of Isaiah 53, use the past tense, instead of the future tense, to describe the sufferings of the Messiah: "Spurned ... bore ... endured ... smitten ... crushed ... submitted ... opened ... oppressed ... condemned ..." and so on.

Fourth: When referring to his death, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." Notice that it does not say, I will be able to forgive your sins [legal model of Atonement] but rather will draw, or attract [moral view of the cross].

Fifth: Before his death, Jesus said to his disciples. "Now you are clean, with the words I have spoken to you." This is a clear reference to the cleansing of the soul for which the Tabernacle was a metaphor. Notice also, that he did not say: "When I am dead, you will be clean," but rather, "Now you are clean." How? by Jesus words. Jesus words, those he used to create Adam and Eve, have power to create a new person in us, one spiritually clean, and obedient to his word.

Sixth: The Bible teaches that "In all their afflictions, he was afflicted." True! Jesus' suffering began with the entrance of sin into God's universe, and at that point God's Lamb was figuratively slaim--a symbol of suffering. Jeus was subjected to pain and suffering, because his children were suffering. This suffering was not a "legal transaction between Satan and God," but rather the natural result of love.

Seventh: Ellen White also stated that "the cross is not a clever maneuver to balance the books of heaven." Sin caused suffering in the heart of the Creator. Jesus paid the price with suffering right from the beginning, and by the time Jesus was born in Bethlehem as a baby, he had suffered enough already. His suffering on the cross was not a payment in terms of suffering, but rather an overpayment.

Eight: Ellen White tells us that God's original plan for the nation of Israel was a glorious one. "Had they accepted their appointed Messiah, Jerusalem would have becone the capital of the world." When they rejected Jesus, God decided to permit the enemy to kill Jesus, which became an open window for us to realize how much God had suffered already right from the beginning.

Ninth: Before his death, Jesus said to the paralitic: "Your sins are forgiven." He did not say, "If I get killed, your sins will be forgiven," but rather, "Your sins are forgiven"--right there, before his death.

Tenth: We find many prophecies in the Old Testament predicting a glorious future for the nation of Israel. Those prediction were not fulfilled. Why? Because they rejected their Messiah. As with the mount of blessings and curses in the Old Testament at the time they entered Canaan, God later on predicted both a glorious future for Israel, and also the death of the Messiah. Israel had two alternatives, and unfortunately they chose the worst one!

There is more, but I do not want to tire you!

God bless!

nic thank you very much for your commentary!
do not be worried, because i do not tire ,i like so much to talking about god.then i conclude that there is not a literal temple or tabernacle at heaven,and i conclude also ,jesus always has been mediator since exist sin in the universe.
my problem is,if i teach these principles in the church
i shall be sent away as azazel.i going to die whether im do that.MY QUESTION IS ;how many times ministers in churchs of
ours shall teach that there is a literal temple at the heaven?
how many years more they will teach ,who jesus has left holy place on 1844 and he jesus has gone to holy of holys?
my understanding about god is progressive ,some years ago
i guessed god kill,god destroys ,god stays angry,god shall
burn everyone who desobeys him.but now i know god's character
i have changed my mind ,i was wrong ,forgive my god for to
think this way.cannot get out anything bad of god .because
god is love ,now why our organization don!t realize,they
teach wrong about the literal sanctuary in the heaven.
i believe at sanctuary he is my life .this sanctuary is jesus.
hoping one day this truth shall be regard the big one.
laercio

I am not sure why a "final generation theory" is relevant.
It will happen if it's going to happen.

All this fight over theory obscures what I think we really must do: prepare for Christ's return.

When God comes for us, He's not going to administer a general-knowledge test on Revelation.

Who have we told about God's salvation lately?
Are we bedazzled by our own "goodness" or Christ's?
Who is our Master? Public opinion? "I don't see what's wrong with that!"?

Anonymous

This issue has divided the SDA church since its founding.
Never more so that with the publication of Answers to Questions on Doctrine and M.L. Andreasen's Letters to the Churches, Then The Brinsmead issue, Then Ken Wood/Herbie Douglass, People were fired, credentials were removed, names were sullied. families broken--all over a obscure paragraph in G.C.

If you want to be a good little boy or girl just don't ask!Tom

Laercio:

You stated the following on 21 June 2008 at 2:37:

" ... i conclude that there is not a literal temple or tabernacle at heaven,and i conclude also ,jesus always has been mediator since exist sin in the universe."

The Bible makes reference to a sanctuary in heaven, then in the same book it tells that Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself." [Hebrew 9:24] The Bible also states that Gods throne is in heaven and the earth is his footstool. Besides, we have the testimony of John who states the following: "I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb."

This means to me that those who claim that there is a sanctuary in heaven are right, those who say that there is no temple in heaven are right, the ones who claim that heaven is God's temple are correct, and those who insist that Jesus is God's true temple are in the right as well. We cannot deny what the Bible claims, as long as we interpret those statements correctly.

The Bible is full of metaphors, and this is the reason for the confusion, because some individuals prefer not to see those symbols of a reality which is much bigger and more mysterious than anything we can imagine. No matter how hard you try, there will always be sincere Christians who will insist in their right to read every passage of the Holy Book in a literal way.

I do not think that God will condemn those who prefer to be blind to the plethora of metaphors we find in our Sacred Book. Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a man who found a precious pearl, to a farmet spreading the seeds, to a fisherman, and so on. He compared himself to a shepherd, to a door, to a king, to a gate, to a friend, to a brother, etc. I ask: Is Jesus a literal door? Is he a literal gate? Well, if someone wants to believe this, I will let him do this, as long as he loves Jesus and does his will.

You also stated: " ... my problem is,if i teach these principles in the church i shall be sent away as azazel.i going to die whether im do that."

Laercio: Is this a metaphor you are using here, or should I interpret this to mean that you are going to loose you job if you teach what you believe to be the truth? Please explain!

You stated also: "MY QUESTION IS ;how many times ministers in churchs of ours shall teach that there is a literal temple at the heaven? how many years more they will teach ,who jesus has left holy place on 1844 and he jesus has gone to holy of holys?"

My answer is: Probably until Jesus comes back in glory to redeem us from this earth. Then he will answer all our questions, and we will no longer see things in a dark mirror.

You also stated: " ...my understanding about god is progressive ,some years ago i guessed god kill,god destroys ,god stays angry,god shall burn everyone who desobeys him.but now i know god's character i have changed my mind ,i was wrong ,forgive my god for to think this way.cannot get out anything bad of god .because god is love ,now why our organization don!t realize,they teach wrong about the literal sanctuary in the heaven. i believe at sanctuary he is my life .this sanctuary is jesus. hoping one day this truth shall be regard the big one."

Yes, truth is progressive; therefore, do not conclude that you have discovered the final truth. Some of the things you believe today, you may not believe tomorrow. Leave some room for others to have the same right to alter their opinion as time goes on. This is my advice!

Brad, New light, eh? How about new translation? I saw my mother, God rest her soul, after Des Ford's revelation about Jesus ascending directly to God, go back and reread EGW and finally say to me, I've been reading her wrong all along, it's a ministry not a position in heaven. Yet from the time of her life to Des Ford the church knew what she taught. Isn't that intellectual dishonesty on some level?

hi nic
thank you for your reply !
iam not going to loose my job because,first i depending on
god,second i depending on myself because i have my company.
nic about hebrew 9,24 declares christ did not enter into
a sanctuary made by hands;why not made by hands?
because when jesus went into of this sanctuary which is not made by hands this sanctuary represents the plan of salvation.
in this plan humans being have not participation because the
planning and achievement has belonged to the god only.
for this the verse says without humans hands,because
nobody has participated this planning only god alone.
i also condemn nobody to believe another way,i am not here
to condemn these or those for do not think like me.

but you have made myself to think about a lot of things
regarding the truth.what is the truth?if everyone think
different over the truth,so some is wrong ,because the truth is only one.the truth is ;to every one in all the places on
all the ages.is it?the truth never changes remaining to the
eternal life.then who believes in the literal sanctuary or
who believes jesus is the sanctuary they are correct.
i do not think so.why?beacause the truth is only one,to every
one,in anywhere in any age.i do not think the truth is progressive,my understanding about god is progressive but
the truth is only one never changes.when i did think god kills
i did think this way because i followed the tradition and
not the truth ,tomorrow i shall not change my mind because tomorrow god shall not begin to kill.because the truth is absolute, never changes.what i have believed is the truth absolute, tomorrow i shall not change my mind, because i believed at tradition now i believe at the truth absolute,traditions changes but the truth never change.
anyone believes in anything but there is a truth absolute
and i believe it i live it.i speak not beacause i guess,i speak beacuse i am sure about it.the truth is not progressive
my understanding about it is progressive.or there is a literal temple at the heaven or there is not a literal temple
at heaven there are not two truths,there is only one.
i should like that you think about
thanks.
laercio

I see from these comments that we have changed from the “trojan elephant” ideas.

A logical next step would be to modify the 28 fundamental beliefs to incorporate what the Bible clearly states: that Jesus ascended as our High priest and is seated at the right hand of God. It’s in the Nicene Creed and it would be good for us to show that our beliefs are based on the Bible. “He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.”

Would anyone like to try at the next General Conference session?
Mike MacLennan

Just wanted to say thanks for posting this; it was very helpful in facilitating this week's lesson study at church.

Well said Mike.

"A logical next step would be to modify the 28 fundamental beliefs to incorporate what the Bible clearly states: that Jesus ascended as our High priest and is seated at the right hand of God. It’s in the Nicene Creed and it would be good for us to show that our beliefs are based on the Bible. “He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.”

"Would anyone like to try at the next General Conference session?"

pat

Laercio posted the following on 21 June 2008 at 9:06:

"what is the truth? if everyone think different over the truth, so some is wrong, because the truth is only one. the truth is; to every one in all the places on all the ages. is it? the truth never changes remaining to the eternal life. then who believes in the literal sanctuary or who believes jesus is the sanctuary they are correct. i do not think so. why? beacause the truth is only one, to every one, in anywhere in any age. i do not think the truth is progressive, my understanding about god is progressive but the truth is only one never changes."

My Response: You said it! The truth does not change. What does change with time is our progressive understanding of the truth. Therefore, no one can claim to possess the absolute Truth.

You also stated: "when i did think god kills i did think this way because i followed the tradition and not the truth, tomorrow i shall not change my mind because tomorrow god shall not begin to kill. because the truth is absolute, never changes."

My Answer: I agree with your previous statement afirming that our understanding of the Truth is progressive. This means that what you believe today may be discarded by you tomorrow, because the Lord may give you a clearer understanding of the absolute Truth. There is no way we can possess the absolute Truth this side of eternity.

Today you may believe that the Lord never kills, but tomorrow you might change your mind. I have a question for you: Who killed the pre-flood generation? Who killed the inhabitants of Sodom? Who killed in one night 185,000 of Israel's enemy army? Who killed King Pharaoh and his entire army in the Red Sea? Who killed Ananaias and Saphira? And who will kill sinners with the bright light at his Second Coming? Who will finally kill Satan and his angels?

It is true that God did not kill Adam and Eve when they disobeyed him. Adam and Eve died as the natural result of their disobedience. Most people die as the result of sin, and not as a direct act of God, but common sense leads me to believe that the Lord did kill sinners in the past, and will do so again at his second coming. Of course, I do not have the absolute Truth about this, so I must be open to new evidence!

You also stated: "the truth is not progressive my understanding about it is progressive. or there is a literal temple at the heaven or there is not a literal temple at heaven there are not two truths, there is only one. i should like that you think about ..."

My Answer: Since we do not have the absolute Truth, then it follows that we cannot be absolutely sure whether there is a literal temple or sanctuary in heaven. Perhaps there is one, or maybe heaven or the entire universe is Gods Temple. We don't know. Therefore, if someone affirms that there is a sanctuary in heaven, they are simply stating what the Bible says in the book of Hebrews.

When, on the other hand, another person affirms that there is no Temple in heaven, because John did not see a Temple there, there is no need to say that such a person is in error, because he is citing sacred Scripture. There are two possibilities: There is a literal building in heaven, or the sanctuary in heaven is not a literal building with walls and a roof on top but rather a metaphor for heaven or the universe. When we get to heaven, we will find out for sure who is right.

Pilate asked Jesus: "What is Truth?" And it (He) was standing right in front of him. Jesus specifically declared that "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light."

Seventh-day Adventists have spent over 164 years going over and over every article of furniture and every post, knob, pot, Alter, cloth, fur, and thread and have missed the Truth. Every part of the Temple spoke of Jesus Christ. He even said, destroy this temple and in three days i will raise it up. Let us spend at least the next decade learning about Jesus and not the toys in the desert. Where ever the The Son of God is: is the Most Holy Place in the Universe. It was then, It is now and it ever shall be. To use a Cliffism--If you don't like it take your sand box and go home! Tom