Ryan:

These lines say it well:

"The issue is not sharing the good news. The problem lies in the misleading message that the Truth about God and humanity can fit onto a DVD and be delivered without context, study, or the honorable work of actual theologizing."

Like many other forms of ministry, public evangelism can be honorable and faithful. But promising a very poor person a helicopter in heaven is.......... Yet this an extreme illustration of a more general problem.

What is it? Perhaps part of it is that we seem to have few ways of measuring suceess and failure in ministry at any level--congregation, conference, union conference, division and general conference--other than numerical growth.

I feel sorry for SDA ministers who feel that the only thing that matters is that they "franchise and baptize." Also, who needs they a distinct vocation and speicialized training for that?

Dave

How we cheapen ourselves, our message, and most of all God, who can be "sold" like a product promising health, wealth and prosperity in the "pie-in-the-sky in the "sweet by and by."

From the very beginning Seventh-day Adventism has been "infactuated" with numbers: 2300 days, 666, and best of all 144,000. So why complain now? I am interested in the multitude that no man could number! Please join me there! Tom

I think this is actually Alex, Dave, but I still second your comment. This is indeed a problem:

"The problem lies in the misleading message that the Truth about God and humanity can fit onto a DVD and be delivered without context, study, or the honorable work of actual theologizing. This type of evangelism teaches Adventist young people to plagerise their faith, don't study it, just present it and you'll be fine."

I've long had issues with the way that we typically do evangelism (the Pyramid scheme analogy works well, Alex)--go to some "unreached" place, preach a Mark Finley/Amazing Facts type sermon, baptize, count numbers and pat ourselves on back, repeat.

It's always seemed to me that outreach/evangelism should happen in the context of community and authentic relationships. My parents church just had a traditional evangelistic series and they brought in a preacher from the east coast who had no knowledge of the community and left right after the baptisms. I applaud young people taking the reins and integrating faith into their field of study, but this is the sort of approach that makes everything seem so easy--just preach and they will come. This leaves no room for subtlety, nuance, or complexity for either the "preacher" or the "preached", and I'd be willing to bet good money that five years from now the numbers on both sides of the pulpit will have dwindled (although numbers are a poor benchmark in the first place) because this sort of simplistic approach promotes the type of black and white faith that crumbles upon contact with real life.

The Good News is simple, but this approach is simplistic.

It is a bit dangerous to consider analogies, since they are always partial and we all tend to over-generalize. However, in watching the ERC promo Alex posted I saw some significant similarities to the Mormon missionary program. The LDS church sends out young people (typically between 19 and 21) to do cold-call tracting work and when people invite them in for studies, the model is for the missionary to move the candidate through a highly structured program toward conversion. The parallels seem to me:

1) target college-aged youth to deliver the message (to be the 'missionary').
2) train the missionary with a structured and focused program, which lowers the bar for pre-requisite skill and background.
3) emphasize quantity (get more missionaries into the field) over quality (having participants with experience), which is also likely to result in greater success among those who are easily persuaded and thus more flighty.
4) segregation of the evangelism (done by the missionary) from the subsequent nurture (done by the congregation).

Now, I can see some benefits to such a system, at least in the Mormon, and potentially this ERC context. The primary and (IMO) most legitimate benefit is that the experience can be one of genuine and important growth - for the missionary. Second, if you cast a wider net you are likely to increase the 'catch'. But here is where the caveats should begin. A superficial evangelism will correlate to a more superficial commitment, an issue Daneen has already noted in this thread and I have also personally seen (in spades) in my Adventist experience. But I would also worry about the damage a missionary trained after this fashion might commit. We can measure the number of converts but not the collateral damage that might be caused in the 'acquisition' if the missionary has insufficient wisdom or sensitivity to deal with the intensely human (not propositional truth) dimensions of evangelism.

The concept of offering everyone, from any major, to learn how to share Jesus is admirable. The bigger problem keeps coming back to the fact that we tend to only have "one" way to do that. For too many students and churches alike-- evangelistic series are the only answer.

Whereas, like we are all wired differently with various strengths and spiritual gifts and passions-- how cool would it be to help students figure out their evangelistic styles and give them the freedom to experiment with how they might share Jesus in the most effective and energizing way for them, congruent with who they are? Off the top of my head I know that the book Contagious Christianity provides a resource to help people figure out their evangelism style: invitational, interpersonal, serving, confrontational, intellectual, testimonial, etc. While limited, I like the idea that there is no one "right" way to do it that everyone needs to learn to imitate, but rather the right way for each person is doing it in such a way that maximizes who they are.

It goes beyond the fact that we are all different people and not everyone should be up there preaching, to also suggest that our audience won't all be moved by the same approach. What would have happened had the art student used his artistic talent to showcase what God means to him? We would have appealed to completely different people.

Evangelistic series do "work." Enough that one of my seminary professors said "we know it's flawed, but until we find something better we have to keep doing this." So I am thankful for those students who feel more courageous now and for the baptisms where I trust that some of them will experience the spiritual journey... but I hope to God that somewhere we start to find ways where we can be effective than just "hoping that in five years half of them are still here."

We need more people out there experimenting, using their own ideas and gifts and areas of expertise to journey with people in ways that are more meaningful, effective and impacting. Show me the video where we encourage the idealism of youth to risk trying new things with hopes of making a bigger difference than simply being able to read someone elses notes.

Daneen
Yes, you're right. We're discussing the blog by Alex. Thank you!
Dave

As long as the comments agree, call me Alex. Please direct screeds to Ryan. : )

Dave, you're right. We have to get more sophisticated about measuring how we're doing.

Tom, I never thought of the numberless multitude that way. Thanks for sharing that interpretation.

SMN, I echo your emphasis on encouraging creativity and experimentation with theology. For example, I'm not sure that an art students needs to preach to be witness. It's going to take time, but one way we can get beyond traditional evangelism is to think about imparting more than beliefs -- more than just a head commitment, Adventism must be a community that takes personal and social ethics seriously (here I nod to the Adventist ethics community: . We've got to say less about a "personal relationship with Jesus" and talk more about Jesus' relationship to us as recorded in the gospels.

Daneen, I'm glad that you note the pyramid part of this. I hope it is clear to people that there is a bring 'em in and then flip 'em element to this. Especially with young people, this army of youth rhetoric sounds a lot like sales-forcing young faith. Get 'em while their passionate! Self-supporting institutions have really pushed this, with the worst turning new converts into pastors in less than a year. For example Mission College (Send forth reapers) offers this sweet deal: Pastoral Ministries (7 Months), ARISE, and Amazing Facts, which offers a four month "complete course," which will "cover counseling, personal evangelism, public evangelism, preaching, and much more." Interestingly the former head of the Amazing Facts program just got hired by Southern's School of Religion (where Folkenberg is listed as an adjunct) and Michigan conference systematically hires pastors from these less-than-associate degree schools. It reveals something about how some administrators value local church life when they foist "leaders" on congregations who have less training than some church secretaries. I hope that church boards demand more.

Evangelistic series do "work." Enough that one of my seminary professors said "we know it's flawed, but until we find something better we have to keep doing this."

How pathetic! The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting better results.

Churches are businesses. No business can continue to operate that doesn't produce a profit. That's the equation by which they operate: More converts = more tithes and offerings; fewer converts = less monies. So, as long as that is the operational model, numbers will be the game.

Convince me that I'm wrong.

Elaine
I got a big chuckle out of your challenge: "Convince me that I'm wrong." Now that really would be insanity--big time. In this case you are not wrong so no convincing is necessary. Tom

While I struggle to come to an understanding of what makes for good evangelism, and am very nervous about pre-packaged sermons, I would also like to suggest that we go easy on our brothers and sisters at Southern. What could we suggest would be a better way for people to learn how to talk about their faith?

I'm in the middle of Elizabeth Gilbert's book "Eat, Pray, Love" in the pray section which is telling her experience at an Ashram in India. She describes her difficulties quieting her mind, and I am impressed by the gentle response of the gurus. We could use such gentleness in our discussions with each other. There are people who want to know how to share their faith. There are people who want to listen. Like SMN, I wish that variety was more prevalent in Adventist evangelism. So what can we do about it? How can we make the change that we want to see?

Alex, why have you stayed, when so many of your fellow student preachers left? Can you help us with what comes after?

It's good to remember to be gentle, Bonnie. I remember that section of "Eat, Pray, Love" and loved it. I liked her discussion that spiritual journeys are hard work--that's why you need a guru to guide you!

I guess the only thing that I get worked up about is that the church and her institutions continually showcase and/or fund efforts to share your faith through evangelism the traditional way (proof-texting Daniel and Revelation and ready-made sermons). Since we tend to emulate that which we've seen, and since approach tends to be the only game around (and it gets support financially from both pew and pulpit), we just haven't explored other options for those who either don't have this gift or have issues with this approach.

When I've seen evangelistic series, it seems true that they "work", but I wonder if we ever evaluate the results. What portion of the population is drawn to Revelation seminars? As an urbanite in grad school, I know this would never "work" on my peers (and I'm not sure that I'd want it to). In addition to learning other ways to share our faith, we also need to think about our different audiences.

Bonnie asked: "What could we suggest would be a better way for people to learn how to talk about their faith?"

Why so much emphasis about talking? How about listening for a change? Why do we assume that we are the only ones who have the secret to living? If we could learn to be friends FIRST, then we are able to listen to what our friends are thinking and feeling. It is ONLY then, that we have a listening ear and not before. This assumes, that we have something very important to them that they are asking to hear. Some assumptions that should first be clarified, which is rarely the case with a Mormon-type approach. Didn't Jesus first feed people before he spoke to them? Didn't he see and sense their needs, whether healing or when they requested answers? Shouldn't we emulate his practices?

How do you feel if someone approaches you, whether Mormon or JW and is most eager to tell you what HE believes? Who cares? The old saying: I don't care to know what you think until I first know that you care (about me), is still an excellent rule to follow.l

Well put, Daneen. Thinking about the many different kinds of audiences would help us come up with different kinds of approaches. What do you think would work with your peers?

When I read writers like Gilbert, Anne Lamott, and Phillip Yancey, who make talking about their spiritual journey seem like an easy thing to do, I feel like it should be easy for me, too. But it is not. I haven't figured out how to convey nuance, how to be positive even if I have doubts, how to be funny and real like they are. Irony plays such a significant role in current conversation. Where does it fit? In Stephen Colbert fashion, I am Adventist and so can you?

Bonnie

I think the church confuses recruitment with evangelism.
Evangelism is telling the Good News to willing listeners.
Recruitment is Marine style: "A few Good Men" a challenge rather than an invitation.

Recruitment varies how afraid can I make you about your end fate or How can I create that elusive priviledged few?

The worst of SDA evangelism comes out of the Oregon Conference and a powerpoint science fiction version of the Book of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation was simply a "This too Shall Pass"
assurance to a beleaguered church from an Apostle who had seen it all.

Heads, horns, scales, teeth, and scarlet women are not part of the Good News. The good news is Jesus Christ is my Elder Brother and my coming King.

Let us leave apocalytic foreplay and get to the Eschaton--The Alpha and Omega of our Salvation.

What needs to be done is to do a William Miller. Tom

Interesting indeed. Bonnie’s comments resonate because she’s at the very same place in Liz Gilberts book that I am! and her questions/impressions echo mine. Our author speaks from his perspective; grad student at Berkley. Dear author; yours is but one perspective. Valid yes; but seeing it from one “place”. May we, in grace, grant to others theirs. Very easy to criticize Adventist evangelism (I’ve done a lot of that in my time) -- harder though, to offer a better way.

I both love this post -- and hate it… Sorry…

May I share this; the moment I realized I had “lost” my own daughter to Adventism was at a regional conference (I forget what the “official” name is…) with Mark Finley. Gawd -- I love and respect that guy. My own dad loved him too -- believed in his mission -- and Mark returns that affection he (Mark) told me. This was maybe 6 plus years ago. Here in Orlando. The “event” was triumphalistic; self congrateletory; and, my daughter sensed in an instant, more about “us” that about the Christ we claim to serve. She was maybe 15 or 16 at the time. “Do the math dad” she said; “we’re so far behind that Jesus will never return if it’s only about stuff like this. Do you think maybe God is much bigger than just we Adventists?”

God; I cried inside that day; she was so right -- and I knew it. And it was all my fault; for it was me who taught her to think independently. So she did; and found Adventism vastly deficient and wanting. I tried to introduce her to the Adventism of Spectrum, and Alex, and Bonnie, and Dave, (all of whom I disagree with when needed -- but in love). There ARE people inside Adventism who see what you see -- and want to change it…

She chooses her own path with God -- and it’s a path I bless with all my heart and my soul. Besides, few others that I know know their bibles as well as she does. Just the other day I asked where a certain text I was pondering might be found… she told me where it was within two verses. Total cold recall. I was stunned… And she deeply loves the God of that book she knows so well…

Can we all just stop right now and agree that Adventism is flawed? Deeply flawed? Oh Lord: how can we bless the efforts of each other -- even though we find them deeply flawed -- just as we wish our own might be blessed? If we do believe that God blesses us -- and leads us to Himself from where we are -- might He be doing this through this ERC? Which is so easily found fault with??

Would that God grace my daughter, in her sojourn outside Adventism, the fortune to find solace with people like Elaine -- and Tom Z -- who grace our presence here… Folks, it’s about God; not us. And God moves in mysterious ways. (I use that line on my kids when things are not going the ways they had wanted…) But He is here too; how might we ennoble and bless the path of those we disagree with??

It is so easy finding fault with traditional Adventism; so easy that I wonder if that is even what I am called to do… How can I, who call myself an Adventist (you of course may disagree) bless those flawed ones around me?? At some point, we must ask ourselves what Luke 9:50 means to us in OUR own context.

No, it’s clear to me now. God is bigger than all of us, and our lovely persuasions. He embraces us all -- even in our flaws -- and bids us do better. Better than ERC (it’s a place; perhaps a start) and better than Spectrum blog (it’s also a place -- and start).

Just musing tonight...

Caring, classic Bob. Love and hate. That reminds me of Robert Mitchum's knuckles in Night of the Hunter.

Yeah, I certainly am not aiming to attack an institution, only to raise awareness via this evidence that this broader approach is not only superficial; it mimics the marketing way of the world and offers false change to Adventist youth.

Is Elaine right that churches are businesses? Granted it's interesting that fellow America-spawned faiths like Mormonism and Scientology operate top-down, with serious attention to the bottom line. However, I think that equating church to business is reductive, although I'd be interested in thinking about how a company like Disney creates a cultural community, which has some interesting parallels to us. Compared to these other US examples, I think that most of our leadership has done well to overcome the market pressures to treat the church like a corporation.

Those who left either are part of communities -- gay, arts, academic, -- that have built-in assumptions at odds with the Adventism they knew or they had premarital sex or drank alcohol and felt happier or lied to and left or they, for whatever reason, chose spirituality or non-belief or a religion that answers different questions. What's after? I think that it depends whether the church gets serious about moving away from emphasizing personal relationships with God (which at core is logically at odds with sticking with a church) and puts its massive cultural production effort into creating an wholly ethical Adventist identity so that people start to answer the question: why are you an Adventist?, less and less by mentioning a belief or the word truth or because Jesus died for me and instead say because it calls me to do this or that because it connects all these meaningful aspects of my life.

Why have I stayed? In part, because of the all-too-rare kismet of having professors, books, friends, and cultural experiences teaching me that Truth is not only private comfort but also a habit for action. And that I find my Truth and my community align satisfyingly with my private existential haunts and my ethical ideals for humanity.

I guess my question is: can our church eschew its overt ways and move toward something more intangible, but also more deep and potentially viral?

This thread caught my eye when I received my weekly newsletter. I am currently a pastor and I have some conflicting feelings. The first is the same frustrations that others have posted, i.e. the system is broken but there is not better alternative... I would propose that there is a better alternative, but it takes longer and doesn't produce the numbers that make Union Magazines look good or that Conference presidents can go to their peers and brag about. At least not in the short term. What I think that Southern is on the right track of doing is helping the students there see that no matter what their career they are ministers and that they have Good News to share, I wish that more of the people in my pews would realize that and not depend on us pastors to be, well to be their priests?

I am also interested in the discussion of pastoral education. I am not for the alternative forms of education mentioned in the postings, but that is mostly because I'm not sure that I like their theological bent. But I would be sad if education or lack there of ever disqualified somebody from their God given calling to pastoral ministry.

Funny that Dave would think this was me. This truly is my pet issue: the way we have taken a narrative, abstracted from it propositions, reduced the kingdom to those abstractions and market this 'commodity' to the world as something life changing. This is a fundamental challenge to the work I do each and every day. Everytime the denominations uses language like soul-winning or evangelism or growth this imagination is implicit. It's been so long since I've related to that kind of distorted gospel that I hardly remember what to do when I encounter it in a pastor's meeting.

One more thing. There is some talk in this thread about whether or not "evangelism" defined in this way, "works." This, to me, is the fundamental problem. The Christian narrative has been co-opted by an economic logic of production and efficiency. Inside this narrative, the question of what works makes total sense. The real question I have about whether evangelism works, is: "Works for what?"

I wrote about this on my blog about a year ago. I have no question that evangelism, the way we do it in our denomination, works, according to the utilitarian logic of the market. It's actually not rocket science. It's a numbers game: X number of flyers mailed yields Y number of attendees on opening night which yields Z number of converts in the end. The problem isn't that it doesn't work. The problem is that we have externalized the ends for which the church exists. The logic of evangelism, according to scripture, is witness. When you change the operative logic from recruitment, as someone noted, or conversion, to witness, the whole thing changes. The gospel is not some a-contextual, commodity that can be transfered in a transactional way. What we are doing may be working, according to some reckoning, but it's not evangelism and the thing being dispensed is certainly not the gospel recorded by the Evangelists in the first four books of the Christian Scripture.

Bob, I loved your comment: "Folks, it’s about God; not us."

If that should be our message, and I believe it should, why focus on the importance of being an Adventist?

Alex, I may not be getting your message when you say:

"What's after? I think that it depends whether the church gets serious about moving away from emphasizing personal relationships with God (which at core is logically at odds with sticking with a church) and puts its massive cultural production effort into creating an wholly ethical Adventist identity so that people start to answer the question: why are you a Adventist?" Which is the opposite of Bob, and my theme of "It's all about God, NOT US.

Both of those topics: the importance of having a personal relation with God (how does one do this with an abstract idea?) and creating an ethical Adventist identity...."

Why is being Adventist of ultimate importance? Isn't that placing an inordinate amount of importance on a particular denomination, rather than the Gospel that knows now boundaries?

Far be it from me to be blind my eyes from true dishonesty in our church. I hope I remain perceptive and vigilent for misguided evangelism, but I am not the slightest dismayed by the ERC video clip. It is simply providing support for a worthwhile mission that most Adventists, young and old, see has their primary reason for being Christians.

Please, fellow first worlders, let's not allow our vast access to information make us paralyzed, unable to bear witness of our Lord and his imminent revelation to our friends and neighbors. Let's encourage each other to all participate somehow in the gospel work, through preaching, and also peace making and service. I agree, we Adventists have always been number oriented group. Christ himself instituted the concept of 100% participation; it is not a pyramid scheme, it is an authentic movement. It's up to us to keep it godly.

PS I'm one who loves Robert Folkenburg and his smiling Jesus. (see the portrait on the ShareHim.org web page) Thank God some now seek to meet the spiritual needs of the developed world in which we live in a positive, Christ first manner.

Well, it is the first time in many years I have seen an Adventist evangelism-related video. The purpose seems motivational, and presents a series of "testimonials" that claim to offer a life-changing experience to those who participate, both the student preachers and the converts. In this way, I agree, it is very similar to many other marketing pieces which overclaim and ignore disconfirming evidence and competing programs or products. So far, I think we can agree it's a middle-of-the road piece of propaganda. I've seen the same kind of thing on tv a hundred times. So long as it does not contain deliberately misleading information, I think the American and Adventist public are quite used to promotional media that present only one side and makes promises that are only possibilities, not certainties. It is the genre! As far as offering an experience, so long as it it is not coercive or corrupting, it may benefit participants. Young people (and older) should stretch themselves and get involved in all kinds of things that take them outside their comfort zone. I don't know if this program does this, but I am sure that for some, it would be challenging and potentially transformative. You can argue that such promotions should be done a different way, but I don't see anything, Alex, that warrants your sensationalist title.

For me, I am not given enough information to make an honest decision. The clip was about interesting participants in "one form of evangelism" and some saying how they benefited. So it also says how many were baptized...how would I know the quality of those converts?
I don't know anything about Folkenberg other than he was a former GC guy. Does that automatically discredit him? They also can "possibly" be saved!

So what is:

1.The content of the actual CD presentation for the prospective hearers? Is it introducing them first and all to Christ and the "now and not yet" Kingdom of Christ to be delivered to the Father at the 2nd coming? Not primarily to our understanding of prophecy and Dan.8:14.

2.Is it in the indigenous language therfore creating a "seemless" presentation (not requiring translation)

3.Is there already a church plant there so that those baptized are discipled by a local church and it's members? I have seen ADRA, partly using US tax dollars create clean water facilities in 3rd world countries also for "present needs."

One thing is for sure...offering them the UN, the US or any other nation, or the Democratic and Republican candidates won't secure their eternal salvation...and often not much but "hot air" in the present age.

And what is wrong with "pie in the sky bye and bye." It is "Part of" that spiritual wisdom that says, "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." All of the "gentiles" seek present "salvation."

Graeme Sharrock -

You have expressed my thoughts about Alex's blog much better than I could, Thank you! Alex, thanks for introducing this very interesting and timely subject. I just think you came about it a tad too strong. Personally I would have been turned off by the vangelistic "promotion" developed by Southern, but then I'm the kind of person that required two years from my first serious interest in SDAisim until I became a convert - convert in this case meaning accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Just because some of us are turned off by this kind of evangelistic outreach doesn't mean it will not be successful with others, and if so, that it will produce a "lesser quality" Christian.

Bonnie has developed at least one good followup idea to the problem identified by Alex - let us, among other things, try to develop ways that we can be personally successful in sharing our faith and getting others to accept Jesus as Lord.

I suggest that this quarter's SS lessons on discipleship may help us with some ways of accomplishing the objectives raised by both Alex and Bonnie. For example, Harold Weiss', "Ruminating on Discipleship," [See SS Center] introduced me to the possibility of two major divisions of Christ's lordship; the cross [sadness] and the resurrection [triump, joy] which has provided me with some ideas that I want to use in sharing my belief in Jesus with others. Richard Choi's, "Relationships Then and Now," [See SS center] makes it clear that if we are going to try to practice discipleship [evangelizing, sharing our faith] as it was practiced in Christ's day, it isn't going to work. Times are different. This may be why many SDA's, who want to closely follow the Biblical models and examples, are not being as successful in their personal discipleship as they would like.

Brantley Johnson

Bonnie asked me what I thought would be the right approach to my peers (urbanite grad students, by and large), and that got me thinking this evening about what it is that I'd be sharing in the first place. The peers whom I've gotten close to don't really seem to be looking--I consider them very spiritually aware, seekers even, but definitely not seeking for doctrine or dogma. I had a very thoughtful exchange with a professor about spirituality prompted by a response paper--she is a Buddhist and is the sort of person that seems to be able to tangibly radiate how much she cares for those around her--I feel that I can learn a great deal from her about how she cultivated her stance of abundance and compassion. I guess I'm finding that the best "witness" is authentic relationships, although I don't have an agenda to invite anyone to church or such (maybe that's what makes it authentic).

I pass several churches during my weekly routine, and the only one that I've ever seen put up evangelistic signs of any sort (or send out pamphlets) is the Adventist church (those horrible beasts of Revelation signs). Interestingly enough the Presbyterian church recently put out a sign about a new monthly spiritual film series that it's hosting--come see a movie, get some snacks, and discuss significant issues with your community. That seems like a way to build real relationships, offer a significant service to the community, and just be good neighbors. Maybe they consider it evangelism; I don't know, but I do know that next semester when I don't have a Thursday night class I'll be going.

It appears that the numbers-driven method of evangelism promises "golden helicopter in Heaven" which will take those poor people living in ramshackled huts on stilts to the promised land-- The United States.

Unfortuntately, most of the current breed of foreign "missionaries" do not speak the language or have no or have a very scant idea of the dymanics of those societies there these kind of evangelism is practice. The message is presented as a superficial cure-all, a panacea, without regard to the historical context of the society where is it being preached.

Let me relate two equally embarrassing stories about how I was suckered.

The first happened in Chattanooga Tennessee just after I got engaged to my wife. Some people got our contact information and offered us a free trip to a warm, tropical, all-inclusive getaway in exchange for our sitting through a presentation on waterless cookware. Nobody explained how these things go. We went.

The slick presenters told us all the reasons that our health is in danger when we don't use waterless cookware, and how using their products will make us exponentially more healthy and efficient.

We ended up with a $250 $&*#! pot that we've never figured out how to use properly and a free trip to someplace we never went. They know that this will happen, I've since realized.

The second story (which elicits the same emotions in me as the first, and for the same reasons) happened when some friends told me about how much fun it was at Southern Adventist University and how there are tons of outdoor sports to get involved in etc. Besides, it's the most spiritual school in the Adventist system, everyone agreed.

I didn't know how things worked there, so I went. I ended up with a $60,000 &*#$%^@*&$%! piece of paper with my name and theirs on it.

Bonnie certainly raised the bar high for civility in this thread, and my post certainly falls short of that mark. Nevertheless, I don't think that if I were given an exit survey upon leaving that place I would have said things much differently.

My strongly negative sentiments toward my alma mater are the product of what Alex's post points out. This brand of doing theology is assembly line theology. Cookie cutter theology. Baby bird receiving regurgitation theology. It's exactly what the video portrayed: a pre-packaged, one-size fits all, ready to go evangelistic campaign aimed at churning out converts just as quickly as possible with the ultimate goal of getting them out there winning souls, whatever that's supposed to mean.

My curiosity, my sense of inquiry, my interest in Scripture, my GPA, and my spiritual life never suffered as badly as during my stay in Collegedale. Recognizing that their intentions are honorable, and that they believe they're doing good, I should probably apologize for verbalizing such strong displeasure, or at least tone it down a bit...

I've almost moved on.

p.s. I transferred there as a third year theology major and promptly switched to religious studies upon arrival at SAU, for whatever that might be worth.

After watching both videos, I'd have to say that PriMerica looks more attractive and life changing than ERC. Maybe when these students from SAU get enough new members and the church has more tithe, we could make even better videos to beat PriMerica at claiming the ultimate in life changing experience. I thought it was ironic that one of the people on the ERC video said we can't do anything without God. But it almost sounded like you could dispense with God as long as you had the ERC program telling you what to do and say. The whole thing was rather ERCsome.

As a 30-something member of a small church I have struggled with the obvious importance of mission to our church while at the same time recognizing through repeated experience that our sustainable growth has not come from traditional evangelistic series or TV seminars. It has come from the blatant direction of the Holy Spirit in ways that often either had nothing to do with our personal efforts or used us in such a way that it was clearly God's work and not ours.

An example: we recently held a bi-lingual Spanish/English revival at our church, partly as outreach, partly as a time of spiritual renewal for our members. The Holy Spirit just came into those meetings in a way that surprised all of us. Attendance each night was greater than the last, with people coming in from the community, both Hispanic and English, sometimes just having seen the sign in our front yard. The meetings weren't a series of doctrines, but just a simple call to unity——that God's church is a house of prayer for all people——and surrender. I'm not suggesting that these are the ingredients for all successful outreach, just that this is an example of what the Holy Spirit did that was unexpected and life changing.

Two things I've learned over the past 10 years: prayer is the most important tool of outreach and, just like the founders of our church did 150 years ago, we need to employ what works for where we are——both in time and place. Adventists have made traditional evangelism a doctrine in our church to such an extent that we fail to remember that pamphlets and tent meetings were cutting-edge means of reaching the population in the 1800s and early 1900s. I think today, personal relationships and the Internet offer similar kinds of opportunities to reach even larger numbers of people, if we thoughtfully, creatively, strategically and prayerfully apply these more relevant methods.

The bottom line is surrender. I believe that methods are important. But if the message is not relevant to me on a daily basis, it will not be relevant to anyone else. And I will not be able to serve as a conduit for what ultimately doesn't not come down to doctrinal choices but spiritual rebirth.

I love and dispise the word surrender. "All to Jesus I surrender" a theme song as the evangelist whispers "With every eye closed, every head bowed!" the organist will play "Just as I am withut one plea" "All to Jesus I Surrender" "I surrender all". Slowly people start their way down the sawdust trai; many weeping, to be gently led to a pew down front.

The music and encurangement from the evangelists continuing until the spell is almost broken. Then a short prayer, a hymn of praise and the evangelist turns his eager attention to those who came forward.

Now much different is "There is a place of quiet rest, near to the heart of God." Jacob came to that place with a rock for a pillor. Mine came in a hay loft on a clear moonless night with the Milky Way as a halo over the Campus at old E.M.C. It was my father and mother, and a couple of godly teachers who loved me first and taught me second.

I am 100 percent in favor of evangelism. and less than 20% in favor of "Crusades". Yes about 2 in 10 are substantial on soteriology and the rest are on Eschology or charismatic gifts of the "evangelist. Tom

Tom,

You said,"I am 100 percent in favor of evangelism. and less than 20% in favor of "Crusades". Yes about 2 in 10 are substantial on soteriology and the rest are on Eschology or charismatic gifts of the "evangelist."

I agree Tom. Silly me, I still love Billy Graham Evangelistic crusade where Christ and Him crucified is preached with the exception of the 2nd coming only occasional allusions to eschatology.(However, one of my systematics profs at RTS pointed out that Eschatology began in Gen.3:15)

I was baptized in 1956 an SDA at age 11. I met my savior Jesus listening to Graham in 1957 on TV with my mom and dad."There is a fountain filled with blood" for sinners like us Tom for the forgiveness of sins.

Isn't that fact the beginning of our attitude of love and forgiveness for others...just as we have been forgiven. Isn't it the source of our self worth, that God so loved us He died for us. Who is he that condemns, it is Christ that justifies.

Pat

I agree on Billy Graham "56. He began in a church basement in La Grange, Ill in the early to mid 40' He packed them in.

Mister Luce got a hold of him and had his publishers "puff" him. He became the confidant of Presidents etc. In the process he tempered his message to almost a sub audible expression. He still was a great voice in the indivisible nature of Christianity. Tom

I am an alumni of SAU. I came out of my time at Southern very "black and white." Through life experience, marriage, wonderful influences and interactions at the Seminary I have moved away from that. I moved away from it because I didn't see Jesus just fitting into one groups box. I didn't see how it made sense for Jesus' love to only be shared in one way, but that there are many different avenues in which to reach people. It seems the group I moved towards, has the same problems as the group I moved away from.
I can't speak to the 50% that Alex spoke of that care little for Jesus or the church after they preached in the Philippines; I can however share my experience. I went on one of these cookie-cutter, assembly line, mindless deliverance of the message trips. I did read from the "script" with minor modifications from myself. And it seems that people on here want to devalue that. But no matter what is said or the criticisms launched against this project it was life changing for me! I have never been the same. And isn't that what we all want, people to be changed for Jesus? I don't like public evangelism and doubt the potential for much good in the U.S.A. but I saw people's lives in Africa changed. Preaching those messages I began to see areas I didn't agree with that we taught and the way we taught it, but I also saw so much more beauty in the Adventist message in other areas. I learned to trust in Jesus because making a call each night, you discover that the response is solely based on the Holy Spirit. I learned to embrace other cultures. I saw how blessed I was to live where I lived. I learned to value people at a whole different level. I began to desire peace and not war in our world. All of this started with one of these ridiculous propositional events...it may not fit exactly what I think is the best, but there are people who are changed, and I thank Southern for giving me that opportunity to experience that change, and for so many of my friends and other young people I know who feel the same way.

Once there was a smooth-talking man selling "snake oil" that would cure everything from cancer to warts. He stood in the public square and from his soap box touted the miracle working properties of his "snake oil." Thousands bought his potion and for a while he was very "successful." It was working! However, very shortly people began to discover that their ailments were not cured. When they tried to find the eager young man he was nowhere to be found. He had moved on to the next town to sell his "miraculous" product. After all, it had worked so well in the previous town.

Before long doctors began to examine the claims of this product and learned that is was nothing more than sugar water with food coloring in it and some other additives to make it taste bad - after all, it couldn't be medicine and taste good. These doctors tried to share the truth of the situation - that people were being taken advantage of. But this would-be healer was so sincerely and earnest and he seemed so nice, people just kept buying the stuff.

After a while there were some doctors who knew the stuff was a fake cure - offering false hope - but they reasoned, "Let's not be too critical. After all, the guy is so sincere and he really means well. He really is raising awareness that we need to be healthier. How much harm could a little of this fake cure do? We should allow for a little of this to be sold."

But others insisted that perpetrating a fraud on the public was unethical and should be stopped. Someone could even get hurt. These naysayers were labeled narrow and elitist. Meanwhile, everyone enjoyed their sugar water and felt better.

Ryan,

My experience has been that the "inclusivist" have said that I was "narrow and exclusive" for believing that Christ is the only true way and the light and the life.

To me that "sugar water" metaphor is indeed sweet.

"Narrow is the way"

I think we may be jumping to conclusions here. The Seventh Day Adventist Church is not trying to tell us what to say and how to say it. If someone cognitively comes up with the gospel, they can use it. Share Him which Bob Folkenberg now is part of encourages you to use the "Truth For Today" Sermon series the first time you go then you are free to use any set you want, even make up your own. This would not be done often simply for the fact that it takes a lot of time to make your own sermons and slides to go with it.

Daneen, I have a similar experience with my peer group that you described. My closest friends are part of my home schooling group (I home school our children). It is an inclusive group meaning that there is no faith requirement to join. By and large it is a well-educated group and the members all deeply value learning. Liberal Christians are the most predominate followed closely by pagan and atheist. There is a sprinkling of Buddhist and Unitarian thrown in for good measure. We all get along very well and talk often of our beliefs. We Christians are tolerated because we have adopted a humble attitude that listens and does not assume that we have the answers. It has been very eye-opening to me to see how God works in the lives of these people. They are not searching for Christian doctrine and any attempt on my part to show them the error of their ways would not be welcome to say the least. The non-Christians to a one have a very negative impression of Christianity as arrogant and exclusive. My witness is my life and I try very hard to model Jesus' love and compassion. It can be a very disconcerting though when the agnostic Buddhist next to you is doing a better job at it LOL.

In a recent Review article, Monte Sahlin said that the action that was most influential in growing a church was active church participation in the local community. This instantly gives name recognition, but better yet, demonstrates that the church is part of the community that is involved in local organizations that help people. Too often, the church has hidden away in its isolated enclave and contributes to overseas work rather than making a visible contribution within its local area.

First, it seems to me that much of the criticism of this form of spreading the Gospel stems from the dislike of Robert Folkenberg. I don't know exactly what happened when he was in the office of President of the General Conference. Did he make mistakes, that much is pretty certain. But he didn't fight to keep his position. From my understanding (which can be incomplete and imperfect), he stepped down to avoid further embarrasing the church. Furthermore, I met Elder Folkenberg on a ShareHim trip 5 years ago. We were headed to Cuba to conduct campaigns and everyone flew to Cancun to catch a chartered flight into Cuba. Even though there were ordained ministers and people he knew personally, he spent 15 minutes talking to me. If his interest in what I had to say during that fifteen minutes was an act, the man should be given TWO Academy Awards!!

Second, has any of those who speak critically of ShareHim ever been on one of their campaigns? The reason the scripts are "canned" is two-fold. One, ShareHim is trying to get the average layperson to get out and fullfil the Gospel commission to preach the Gospel to all the world. Second, there is a unified theme and the same Gospel is preached. A corollary thought is that after seeing success in the mission field, the person will go home and continue some kind of ministry in their local area. We need to get more people involved in the work of ministry. Is there a need for training? Yes, there is. Two days are spent as a large group with ShareHim preparing the person for what they will encounter. Then for at least a couple hours every day, a trained facilitator goes over the material in their individual group. It isn't perfect, but nothing on this earth is.

Finally, if the ShareHim is an inferior tool for spreading the Gospel, instead of complaining about it and come up with something better.

Alex,

Only on Spectrum will you find people complaining & judging others; even when it means that souls are coming to Jesus.

Have any of the nay-sayers on this blog led someone to Jesus (let alone the SDA message)? I think we should win some souls for Jesus before we earn the right to criticize others for putting forth the effort.

Those young people may be using Mark Finley's notes, but last time I remember, the notes were mostly BIBLE REFERENCES & TEXTS!

These meetings are motivating the local congregations to befriend their community and extensive effort in both pre-work and post-work is being expended by the local churches. This is a work of unification amongst Christian brothers and sisters around the world.

Now for my personal TESTIMONY:

Alex, not only did preaching this event myself 3 years ago in a small town in Pennsylvania, change my life...MY WHOLE FAMILY (me, 2 brothers, 2 sisters, mother, now-pastor-father, grandmother, wife, etc.) WOULD HAVE NEVER HAVE BECOME CHRISTIANS WOULD IT NOT HAVE BEEN FOR SOMEONE GETTING OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONE TO USE A "COOKIE-CUTTER" EVANGELISTIC METHOD. My family joined the Adventist Church because of one of these evangelistic series. We were more than just a number to those loving people that welcomed us into the gospel of Jesus Christ!

In Conclusion:

If God can speak Truth through a Donkey, I think He could use us too. It is ultimately about God working through us and us speaking the Truth as found in the Bible!

Happy Sabbath everyone! Remember to keep it holy, not because Mark Finely's notes say so, but because Jesus wrote it on tables of stone and on our hearts (they just happened to be referenced in Mark Finely's notes) :)

Jason

P.S. -- That was an awesome video from ERC!! Young people that are just as excited for Jesus as most Americans are about money?! Truly we are living in the last days! Praise the Lord for young people enthusiastic for Jesus!!

Jim--I am certainly not a qualified voice on this subject, but my personal experience of "Folkenbergism" came during my senior year at Pacific Union College when, as a student journalist, I interviewed him as part of an in-depth piece on his "Total Commitment to God" proposal, which was very well-meant but targeted colleges and universities in an attempt to make sure doctrine was being taught according to acceptable and official standards. He advocated an accountability process that would survey students about their spiritual experiences after classes (think No Child Left Behind but with religion questions). Here's an old story (not mine) about it:
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/1997/01/tensions-peak-adventist-higher-ed...

Many perceived this as an attempt to do just what this thread has reacted to--come up with a one-size-fits-all approach to being an Adventist Christian and take back control of (perceived) wayward theology departments to make sure students were coming out sure of their Adventist identity and orthodoxy.

I strongly opposed this as a student as did many faculty members, and not just because it seemed 1984-ish, but also because it seems like bad teaching and bad religion. Now that I've had a decade to grow since college, I've realized ever more how shallow this idea was--most of my life-transforming and faith-affirming experiences started as doubt and disruption (you said what? you mean we don't know what? you mean there's a flood story older than the Bible's?). If teachers were forced to "teach to the accountability survey", I can only imagine how shallow my classes would have been.

I'm not speaking for anyone else on this thread, just my own hackles that get raised when this topic comes up!

After reading the linked article of Folkenberg's proposal for gauging "spiritual commitment," it begs the question:
How does one quantify or measure spiritual commitment? Who designs the measuring tools? Is it another attempt to measure "success" in the spiritual life? If so, count me out.

Those were exactly the very excellent questions raised, Elaine, and (luckily, I think) the proposal was never implemented.

Hi Beth,

I do believe we should rejoice at the "secular inclusivity" we have in the US. But I can't accept "religious inclusivity" any more than those "exclusive" Jewish boys did in Daniel 3:12.

If one is ever truly touched by the Holy Spirit of ones own self righteousness,unholiness and unlovingness then it is my belief that the trip to the foot of will indeed be sweet and "good news."

If we try to "outlove" someone we never end up pointing them to the true lover Christ who while we were yet sinners died for us. I've met many kind Buddhist, Hindu's even a few Sunni Muslems while in Bangladesh but none of them could qualify to be my savior because they are yet sinners.

Regards.

PS. And while there is yet sin in the world there is NO LASTING PEACE...even if I envision it.

I think Alex has correctly characterized much of Adventist evangelism. Until the focus is on the well being of those being "witnessed to" instead of the witnessers or the witnessers' brand of theology I think we are incompletely carrying out the gospel commission at best and, more likely, disrespectful of our fellow travelers. Experiences that tear down our fences and increase our awareness of the human condition in all its forms are desirable and may be the responsibility of the church as well as the individual. But this is not responsible evangelism. And calling it such is self-centered.
At a WWU Theology Dept presentation on evangelism about a year ago I asked one of the guest presenters who has spent much of his life in the mission field why we have such a focus on evangelism in the Adventist church. He said, because it improves people's lives. Well, that reason is hard to argue with. I thought it was to guarantee the continued existence of the church, to spread the gospel so the end could come, to insure the tithe base, to give our youth mission trips to go on. But improving people's lives....wow, I can get behind that idea. Wait a minute, something isn't connecting here. Did the 2300 day charts that I grew up with improve someone's life? The Revelation Seminars? The prayer meetings held in preparation for the "upcoming evangelistic series?" The sheep stealing of an older generation?
Personally I'm not called to the gospel commission. I leave that to others. (I'm called to Mt. 25:35; "For I was hungry and you gave me.....") But I am a Seventh Day Adventist and call myself a Christian and I too am concerned when the practices of this church and this faith are disrespectful of members of my community in their evangelism. I'm thinking that as we need to be culturally sensitive in our world we also need to be faith-tradition sensitive which means becoming literate in the world religions and respecting their adherents enough to say let me improve your life without changing your belief system. Respectful enough of them to say to them, tell me how I can help improve your life instead of just doing the thing I think they need.
One of my favorite books is The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. It really helped me to see evangelism and do-gooding in a different way. As privileged people and Christians we have a tremendous responsibility to not just do what works best, but to get it as right as possible. We are talking about individual's lives, not just numbers.

Jim, the point that I've been trying to make is that this kind of program isn't the gospel. The minute you put your hands on the narrative to pull timeless principles from it that can be packaged and sold as a commodity, you don't have the gospel anymore, you have something else. In fact, maybe what you get is exactly the kind of syncretism that some on this thread are worried about. Only this kind of syncretism is composed of the Christian narrative and a kind of post-Enlightenment, capitalist worldview.

Ryan,
"Only this kind of syncretism is composed of the Christian narrative and a kind of post-Enlightenment, capitalist worldview."

Wow, Where did that come from?

Alex--your thoughts on why you stayed when so many of your fellow student-preacher evangelists didn't intrigue me. Will you elaborate more on what you mean by this? I'm asking from a place of longing to find my reasons to stay.

"Why have I stayed? In part, because of the all-too-rare kismet of having professors, books, friends, and cultural experiences teaching me that Truth is not only private comfort but also a habit for action. And that I find my Truth and my community align satisfyingly with my private existential haunts and my ethical ideals for humanity."

And Pat, where did you get the idea from Beth's post that she was looking for a savior among her Buddhist/non-religious peers in her home school group? I didn't sense that at all--just a realization that we can learn too, not just share.

Ryan,
I don't know if your "snake oil" story was directed at my comment or not, but if so I will respond. I was not saying that analyzing or even criticism of these events was unwarranted or unacceptable. I was simply trying to make the point that good things have come-out of these events, and the tenor of the conversation I felt was saying nothing good could or would come out of them. Also, if the story was implying that all the healing that occurs from such meetings is temporary then again I would have to disagree. I believe the Word is more powerful than the method; this doesn't mean that the we should abandon all attempts to correct our wrongs and improve upon broken ways, but to simply cast them off as magic potions that don't really bring life change puts the method over the Word and I don't want to do that.
"As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
Isaiah 55:9-11

"The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."
Philippians 1:17, 18

Whether it is the methods I like or not; I admit there are lives that are changed, because ultimately the Word is the most powerful thing! That doesn't mean stick your head in the sand, it just means the results and those involved may still be sincere and from God.

Anon-
"And Pat, where did you get the idea from Beth's post that she was looking for a savior among her Buddhist/non-religious peers in her home school group? I didn't sense that at all--just a realization that we can learn too, not just share."

I didn't suggest she was...those were my observations of the only place where "I found one." Perhaps you can paste me where I suggested "she was."

Ryan, I do see your point. There is the danger of this program being packaged and sold as a commodity, but I disgree when you say it isn't the gospel.

I can't judge the intention of ERC, I don't know the people behind it. And I can't judge the motives of the people at ShareHim, even though I've met Folkenberg and the short time I spent with him was a refreshing change from some other officials or ex-officials I have spent with the Church.

But what I can judge is my own experience. I have seen lives changed from both sides of the experience. When I went to Cuba with ShareHim in 2002, one of the ladies that came was a teacher in one of the schools. She was a member of the Communist Party and an atheist. A neighbor of hers was a member of the Church and asked me to visit her. I went and visited and she was so impressed that I came to see her, she started attending the meetings. She was eventually baptized and today, she is STILL an active member of the Church who is winning souls for Jesus Christ in Camaguey, Cuba. Her neighbor had tried for years to share Jesus with her, but to no avail.
On the other side, I went to Africa with ShareHim in 2007 and had the privilege of working with a young lady who had just finished her freshman year at Southern (of all places) and had never gotten up in front of people before. Because she was SO nervous, she was given a site across the street from Kendu Adventist Hospital. The area is heavily Adventist and the leaders mainly wanted the series as a revival. At the end of the series, 30 people accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. This young lady was so impressed with how the Lord moved that she has decided to dedicate her life to God in mission work.
I fail to see where this isn't the Gospel. Are there some things in the program that may not be the best? I'm sure there probably are. Are there less than perfect men and women involved? Of course, all have fallen short of the Glory of God. But as the old saying goes; Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater!

I have always been disturbed by what I perceived in Adventism as microscopic thinking. We often fall into the trap of emphasizing certain things without looking at the "big picture." For example, evangelizing and "soul-winning" often get front and center treatment in our faith community. However, Paul in Romans 12 clearly states that we all have different gifts and abilities. If I'm reading those scriptures correctly, then Paul places things like encouraging, giving, and showing mercy on equal footing with things like prophesying and teaching. If we are to edify the body of Christ, then we would do well to encourage a more complete and holistic view of our mission as Christians.

That being said, I think there is a place in Adventism for programs like ShareHim and the ERC. I just feel they need to be a part of a whole, along the lines of previous posts calling for the need to utilize other creative/artistic/ethical/life-living ways to reach others.

I also believe in the concept of divine multiplication, in that God doesn't necessarily need us to do His work. He affords us the opportunity to work with Him so that we can see His power and that affects us from within. I like to call it multiplication because God takes whatever we give, even our imperfect cookie-cutter methods, and multiplies it and uses it for His glory. Think of Jesus receiving five loaves and two fish, a meager amount, and multiplying it to feed thousands. Maybe we should look at our evangelistic efforts in that way as well.

I once was having some difficulties as a pastor with some church members and the conference ministerial director (now a conference president) decided he needed to get involved. In one "counseling" session in my home he told me that if I had more baptisms I wouldn't be having these problems.

I told him that I knew how to get more baptisms; that I had also gone through the Seminary and knew the tricks to "help" people make a decision to be baptized, but that I wouldn't use them; that it was the Holy Spirit's job to bring people to conviction and that if He hadn't done His job, I wasn't going to do it for Him (sorry for the masculine pronoun ladies. No offense intended). He (the ministerial director) was not impressed with my response and he continues to focus on numbers to this day, although he claims the numbers are important because they represent "precious souls" brought into the kingdom (but he doesn't know diddly about most of these souls as individuals.)

Anyway, Alex, all I can say about your original post is Amen, Amen, and Amen!

Elaine,

I can tell you how to gauge spirituality, at least among pastors. The same ministerial director I mentioned in a previous post told me that pastors who always pray and read Scripture when visiting people are spiritual. Those who don't aren't.

Posted with tongue firmly planted in my cheek!

I have seen the results of this type of evangelism (following someone else’s sermon outline) when done in countries outside the U.S. and, though it is seldom if ever perfect, the results have been astounding. For the most part both parties, the willing and eager participants and many of the huge crowds of hungry and soul-searching people, have left with their lives changed. To cast dispersion on any outreach that is bringing this many to know a personal Savior is, in my humble opinion, being unrealistic. No matter how deficient you may find it, you can’t argue with this kind of success, especially when you consider the value Christ placed on each soul with His own sacrifice. I think we need to beware of criticizing any evangelism which is done by willing participants and that brings joy, happiness and salvation to so many for whom Christ died.

The only portion of the SAU YouTube video that I felt very uncomfortable with was the implied assumption that everyone should participate in this particular outreach. That simply is not true. God gives each of us different talents for a reason, so that together we can reach out to everyone. Any indication that all students (Christians?) need to reach out using the same tool is counter to what the Bible teaches. But, the effects of these outreach series overseas has been nothing short of phenomenal. No matter how flawed, I believe their genuine efforts to touch the lives of others is being used by God for the benefit of good both in this life and the next.

In almost the same breath I must also admit I have become increasingly disturbed and aggravated at the conference-mandated evangelistic series imposed upon the pastors in our conference. (This practice may extend to other conferences or even countries, but my personal experience leaves me only able to reference this part of the world.) Part of my struggles may come from a feeling of obligation to support our poor pastor who, despite spending a lot of time and money on comprehensive advertising, has still ended up with few, if any, non-SDAs. This in turn translates into few, if any, additions to our church (outside of a few youth whose families are already members.) I am using numbers as a reference since I’m not sure how else to quantify the good done per dollar spent. Don’t get me wrong. I place no limiting monetary value on a soul, certainly no comparison to the cost of holding the evangelistic series. That is not the point.

I do, however, believe in good stewardship. There can be a convincing, driving force behind a congregation-initiated outreach. The same amount of money spent can quite possibly have results that reach many times over the number of hearts and lives affected for good than did the amount spent on an evangelistic series. You could also feasibly see a huge increase in the number of church member participants. And, you can definitely see the difference in their level of excitement.

I’ve witnessed this in one of our local churches. This past December their members put on a “Journey to Bethlehem”. It was comprised of an outdoor walk to and through the town of Bethlehem. We passed merchants selling their wares, Roman guards, a tax collector’s booth, even a camel trader with a real camel before joining with the wise men and shepherd’s to travel to find Mary, Joseph and the Baby Jesus. It went for 3 very cold evenings over one weekend, but the total attendance was nearly 3,000! The church members loved putting it on and many from the community begged them to do it again next year. A huge number of members were enthusiastically involved in building the sets, sewing the clothing and a myriad of other jobs. Now they are talking of maybe doing something on Easter weekend. From what I understand this brought more new people to their church than all their past evangelistic meetings put together.

Well, I’ve given one suggestion. Now I would like to see this blog used to come up with other new, innovative ways to meet the needs and longings of a harried and exhausted American public, maybe something besides asking them to add yet one more long series of meetings to their already bulging itineraries. We need ideas that will resonate with them in their personal lives. Personally, I believe that needs to start with friendships and with caring for others needs, something that requires time. That was, incidentally, Christ’s method while here on earth.

And….who knows….maybe I could even get excited about a grass-roots evangelistic series. I really don’t know. Hmmm…is there a chance that members up front, who may not be refined preachers, but who are genuine in telling their own stories could possibly end up being incredibly interesting to me?? OK, lets hear some other ideas. We can talk all day about what doesn’t work. Let’s figure out some ideas for outreach that WILL WORK!

I just read this in an issue of Rev! magazine and have to share it. It's titled "12 Common Myths About Outreach."

1. Evangelism is the "organized" church's job.

2. When people say "outreach," they're all talking about the same thing.

3. Canned approaches still work well.

4. Armed with ample apologetics, we can convince people to believe in Christ.

5. Church mission statements are effective.

6. Revival services and camp meetings are still productive means of outreach.

7. Church marketing with slick ads and postcards is sufficient to gain new members.

8. A growing church is a sign of effective evangelism.

9. Attraction events are sufficient to introduce people to Christ.

10. Confrontational evangelism is effective; more Christians should implement it.

11. Altar calls at the end of church services are the primary way that people make decisions for Christ.

12. if people are attending church, it's fair to assume they have a deep relationship with Christ.

The issue also has a chart of evangelism "success" going from cold to hot -

Cold: "turn or burn;" confront people with the truth

Cool: We've discovered the truth; let's convince "them."

Warm: We have something we think "they'll" want; warm them up slowly.

Hot: I'm here for you; experience the difference in my life that God makes.

WDYT?

Did you watch the bottom of the ERC promo video? The combination of the Gospel's power and the students' efforts have led more than 7000 people to baptism! Praise the Lord!It is evident that most of the participating students are not Theology majors. I agree with the concept that even though someone may not have evangelism as his/her primary spiritual gift, he/she should "do the work of an evangelist" anyway! Stop criticizing the ERC for giving young people a viable opportunity to do something for the Lord, something that most pastors in America [and many writers in this blog] have never done in their lives!

I'm not convinced that evangelism corrupts Adventism as much as indicates a corrupt system. There is good reason for most Adventists to be entirely unmotivated to "convert" others--in their hearts they don't believe much of it themselves, why should they try to convince others to join them?

I am no longer Adventist, but I can think of so many examples as illustration. I'll give just a couple.

I was a young teacher in an Adventist school in the south. The white church (conference office church, actually) conducted an "effort," and the evangelist baptised over 200, including children down to 8 years old (got the numbers up, didn't it?). He didn't mind slamming the Seminary in his sermons. And after the baptism, someone in the church "invited" the African-Americans to attend the black church across town. Corrupt?

How about the regular preacher in that same church. Told lies and made up "facts" in his sermons (I used to check at the library) to "prove" his point. Corrupt? From that time on, I have seen politicians and preachers as essentially cut from the same cloth--don't tell the truth, tell the people what they want to hear (Huckabee really scares me, because he's both). Sooner or later, reality has a way of intruding, but it's amazing how many years this can take.

Take the Adventist belief system. Some parts of it (universal Sunday law anyone?) are so ludicrous that it's hard to explain this belief system to people who know nothing about the church with a straight face (they believe what?). Puts church employees in a tight box sometimes, including secret meetings of like-minded individuals for fear of losing their jobs.

Corrupt?

Harvey

As an American who is currently teaching a class in public evangelism at our Adventist College in Thailand (Mission College, not to be confused with the institution mentioned by Alex), I find the discussion fascinating.

I spend a significant portion of the class talking about how to contextualize the Adventist message for this part of the world. Traditional Adventist evangelism doesn't work in Thailand. The beasts of Revelation don't make sense. We're still figuring out what works, but so far public meetings accompanied by community service projects and based on themes like family or a fulfilling life seem to hold the most promise.

The church has been here over 100 years and we have 12,000 members--one Adventist for every 5,610 people by my rough calculation. In the Philippines, not too far from here, there are well over half a million Adventists--at least one for every 167 people. Whatever the complex reasons for these differences I think it is safe to say that traditional methods of evangelism worked better in the Philippines.

Allow me to suggest that ShareHim and similar organizations conduct public evangelistic events in areas where the canned messages ARE culturally relevant. We're 100 years down the road of foreign missions. Somebody HAS spent the time to do the honorable work of theologizing the message. ShareHim doesn't come to places like Thailand. They go to places where their message makes sense. Places like Africa, South/Central America, the Philippines. Perhaps this same approach and message is becoming more and more irrelevant in America as time goes on.

Also, I think the definition of gospel some are promoting here is too narrow. Yes, I do think the Adventist Church needs to embrace the call to social justice that resounds in scripture. Yes, the story of redemption is a narrative. But I think it is a mistake to reduce the traditional Adventist message to a series of propositional truths. The Great Controversy theme provides a unique metanarrative in Adventism that no evangelist worth his salt will ignore. The message that God is ultimately in control of world history and will come again to establish an eternal kingdom (the central message of most of our Adventist prophecy-based evangelistic efforts) is wonderful good news to alot of people all over the world.

Recognizing and honoring the differences in cultures is ultimately of the first importance.

When there are few, very few people today who have any knowledge of what is in the Bible except what they've been taught, it is rather easy to sell them on something as being from the Bible as a guide for the future.

Perhaps that is why it is so difficult here in the U.S. as well as Europe. There are more educated people who have been taught to think critically and are skeptical of hucksters who are attempting to sell them a plan for the future from an ancient book. Bridging the gap between where people are and what the "seller" wants to convince them to accept, is presenting a problem that has not kept up with the pace of the postmodern mind. Still trying to attract people with the same beasts and prophecies is simply not going to cut it. How many of your non-SDA friends would be excited to hear such a lecture, even with power point and video? It just ain't gonna work with anyone I know, nor would it work with me. One must either get someone who has so little diversion in his life that he is ready to attend such a lecture.

As long as I’m finally venturing into the world of online blogging I have one more beef to air. It is over altar calls. I’m a Baby Boomer and I’ve experienced altar calls being misused far more than properly used (although I’m still unsure as to what the proper usage would look like.) I still cringe when I hear the song “All to Jesus I Surrender”. I have even, at times, gotten up and walked out. This has nothing to do with my personal relationship with Christ. It does, however have to do with this song being used repeatedly to coerce people, in a moment of passion, to walk up to the front in a show of giving themselves to Christ.

First, but not foremost, altar calls are usually ambiguous as to whom the pastor or evangelist is really targeting. It is not unusual for the “wrong group” to respond because of the confusion. This often leaves these respondents confused and embarrassed. Secondly, and more importantly, altar calls are often used to try to force the entire group to respond. Pastors/Evangelists, listen up!! When you ask those who want to rededicate their life to Christ to stand up and then you immediately take that group of standing parishioners and then tell them to open their hymnals for the closing song, does it ever dawn on you that you have probably left some very conspicuous “sitters” who now do not know whether to stand, sit or just plain leave?

What if you have a young mother, as I was, who is in the middle of struggling with her anger towards God but who stills comes to church for the sake of her children? Does she stand to save having to explain to her young ones her own inability or unwillingness to completely surrender her life to God at that moment? Or, does she stay seated because, even though she’s angry with God, there’s still a deep respect for Him and she’s not willing to openly lie to others just to save face?

Please, can we come up with some alternatives to this? I’ve seen friends leave the church because they were put into an embarrassing situation such as this. Is this really good for anyone besides the pastor’s/evangelist’s ego? Has anyone done any research as to how long this effect typically lasts in one’s personal life? There’s got to be a better way.

I’ve come to be at peace with my God, but it did not come from any altar call! It took a long time of searching, arguing and trying to figure out how God could fit into my life of pain. Our God can and does wait, even if it takes us years. I still love my SDA church, flaws and all, but we need to continually and diligently work to find better ways to effectively show how wonderful and patient our God really is.

As if I can add to the ocean of thought already expressed above, but here's my two cents:
1) Yeah, there is a lot to say about and a lot of problems with Adventist evangelism...
2) ...but whatever it is Mr. Carpenter is upset about isn't one of them.

I just can't find anything wrong with getting young laypeople excited about sharing their relationship with Jesus, nor do I find fault with how the ECR is doing this. Yes, ok, there are problems with Evangelistic series and measuring their successes. But college students preaching the gospel? Geez, man, I'm all for it. Loosen up, bro! There are far more interesting things to say about this topic as is evident by the thoughtful comments above.

Your comments about cultural relevance, Ryan, hit home with me.

In my culture (San Francisco), I know I connect with the arts (especially film and book events), social justice causes (especially for the those who are traditionally turned away by churches in this town for their sexual orientation), and service projects that help our neighbors and environment--I have a feeling my fellow citizens would connect with these things too. The church group I go to (and it doesn't even bill itself as a church because of what usually comes with that word) emphasizes the above and truly doesn't have an agenda for where my spiritual journey needs to end up or what my life has to start looking like before I'm accepted on a permanent basis. It started with six people two years ago and today there were about 35 present--slow growth, but authentic growth; these are people who know each other beyond smiles and facades. Of course, it's not an "official" church of any denomination (although it does attract many who grew up Adventist) and would die a quick death if it ever had to be accountable to those who fund traditional evangelistic campaigns.

I went through the YOUTUBE bit a second time. Sounded like the Tower of Babel--just a clutter of voices. The best I could get was: "look how young, how clean, how bright eyed, well groomed, how eager/happy I am. You can have all this too if you join Jesus through us."

I bet that not one of the young people there could define or explain the Gospel in 25 words or less. They were talking in "zip code" a new form of "tongues". No wonder Alex is concerned. I attend church for a number of reasons, fellowship, sharing, but primarily to be fed! Blessed Assurance! These guys couldn't even sell diet pills.

If God is waiting for the Gospel to get into all the world--these "sound bite spins" won't bring Him any closer. Tom

If I'm not mistaken this promotional video from SAU is about short-term student evangelistic missions abroad. Their target audience, by and large, are those residing anywhere outside the USA/North America. A couple of questions pop out in my mind: 1) Should we not expect a university-based evangelism resource center, headed by academics with mission experience, to do better than a conference evangelism department? 2) Must the standard we use to measure short-term missions, evangelistic or otherwise, be lower than for those who engage in long-term ones so we may not hold the former accountable to the same degree as the latter?

My part of the world is evidently one of the favorite destinations of the outreach activities by students and faculty from the USA/North America. Is traditional public evangelism in the Philippines or Thailand effective or not? The answer, I believe, depends on what is meant by "traditional"? Traditional in the sense that evangelists from the west/North America use the term in connection with their short-term reaping crusades abroad and/or their homeland? Or traditional from the point of view of their indigenous evangelist counterparts?

While religion presumably deals with our spiritual nature it is or should also be socially integrative. In point of fact, when we evangelize and convert people from one religion to another we're asking them to transfer allegiance from a familiar, traditional culture to something new. Relatively new, that is. There's the difference between Adventist member recruitment in the Philippines from those in Thailand. What works and what doesn't work in the Philippines and/or Thailand? The population in the Philippines is more than 80% Roman Catholic. Thailand is inhabited mostly by Buddhists. While the Philippines was a Spanish colony for more than 300 years, plus 50 years under US-American occupation, Thailand was never under foreign-western domination. While conversion to Adventism in the Philippines is mostly among nominal Christians, still the same entails much diligent work and painstaking follow-up. Sadly, what people from the west know is mostly news that are published for their own consumption and for the promotion of the same by their own mission representatives. May I voice the obvious regarding what has been taken for granted as an imperialistic approach to evangelism abroad?

What else is new?

First, the annual growth rate has not changed significantly from year to year regardless of the number of public evangelistic missions from abroad.

Second, the difference between the annual accession and growth rates in the 3 Philippine unions from 1995 thru 2005 translates into dropped and missing members. In light of the more than half a million baptized adult SDA members in the islands, converting the percentage of lost members to actual figures, or vice-versa, on a yearly average staggers the imagination. Does it touch our spirits to the core such that we resolve to do whatever is needed to correct the discrepancy, as the Spirit leads?

http://www.adventiststatistics.org/view_Summary.asp?FieldID=D_SSD

Note the adjustments resulting in negative growth (decline!) for two years prior to the 2005 GC session.

South Philippine Union Conference

Growth Rate
6.01% 5.73% 4.13% 5.23% 6.32% 6.66% 5.57% 2.65% 3.43% -7.52% -47.03%
Accession Rate
6.26% 7.49% 5.45% 5.59% 6.98% 7.28% 6.66% 4.14% 4.63% 4.10% 4.21%

Central Philippine Union Conference

Growth Rate
4.47% 5.44% 2.23% 2.80% 2.79% 5.21% 3.57% -6.38% -23.63% -25.30% 7.14%
Accession Rate
4.94% 6.20% 3.82% 4.26% 6.15% 5.85% 4.96% 4.21% 4.87% 5.25% 7.93%

North Philippine Union Mission

Growth Rate
5.23% 6.08% 4.82% 5.37% 6.42% 6.52% 4.68% 6.30% -17.36% -6.99% -15.76%
Accession Rate
6.20% 6.98% 5.47% 6.08% 7.08% 7.01% 5.21% 7.19% 4.32% 7.21% 7.81%

Since there is also an on-going conversation in another thread about the Central California Conference, let me post for those interested the link to the NAD and CCC stats respectively. Deaths consist of less than 1% annually in each of the local conferences and unions. Transfers in and out balance each other. Just even, IOW. The difference between accession and actual growth is what really matters. This translates to dropped and missing members in each of the NAD unions and local conference such as the CCC.
http://www.adventiststatistics.org/view_Summary.asp?FieldID=D_NAD
http://www.adventiststatistics.org/view_Summary.asp?FieldInstID=742864

Thanks Joselito

While at Loma Linda I conducted a three week mission trip of medical, dental, nursing, and allied health students and faculty to the State of Chiapas, Mexico. We accomplished a lot of critical care medicine high in coffee country. The best result we had was in the career development of the students who made the trip.

Of Course we would brag about 7,000 teeth extracted, one to three babies delivered, snake bite therapy, even a cholera epidemic stopped. Now that part of Mexico is Castro country. (We attribute that to the pastor who tagged along and preached on the Second Coming and the time of trouble with a explosive eruption to simulate the H. Bomb.)

What turned my off on the YouTube piece was the babble and the bragging. It seemed content free. Tom

I regularly log onto the Spectrum Site for its resources and to see what currents are flowing in the SDA mainstream, but was most offended and dismayed by this posting, which obviously received prime posting and has generated great interest. I would not have seen the video had you not posted it!

In short: this piece of work is comparable to the response of the scribes to the events of Pentecost: That these untrained fishermen would want to pontificate about the complexity of the Jewish Messiah, and even proclaim that a condemned man was God can only foment more problems with the impressionable people. Just leave the preaching to the fully trained, qualified Rabbis and keep quiet. Why should our youth not for a change be targeted by a real challenge? Are we so jaded that we ignore the promise of Jude that “your young men will dream dreams” or go out and preach messages? Did Ellen White have the necessary Theological credentials?

Yes indeed, let’s rather opt for the same old complacency. Let’s not get our youth to experience the sense of personal unworthiness of taking this great responsibility, nor let us have them experience the thrill of seeing how the Holy Spirit can work through their bungling efforts. Perhaps more of us should be reading John Ortberg’s “When you want to walk on water you have to step out of the boat” to get out of the pious and snide criticism of some of the really useful things being done…

The concluding message about numbers is probably quite offensive to some, much like the accounting of the numbers who joined the church after Pentecost…. Shame on those head counters who kept statistics about “quick saved results.” Does the Gospel Commission not enjoin us to teach to obey AND to baptize? Some may be doing the work for personal selfish reasons, psychological manipulation or worse, but the fact remains, the Word is being spread, and these folks are actually going out and doing something, or being equipped to go rather than simply the tragic situation where business goes on as usual until the doors are shut.

The point is that God has ALWAYS used defective methods and sinful individual to spread the message. Undoubtedly, the professionals and highly qualified remain lamentably comfortable arguing over theological niceties, while there are real people dying. Indeed, as a physician, I am very comfortable with “a nursing student handing a laryngoscope to a theology major for a life changing week of orotracheal intubation in Africa.” Indeed, that is precisely what is required WHEN THE REALLY QUALIFIED DOCTORS (ARE UNWILLING TO HELP!!!!) OR UNAVAILABLE, as is always the case during a cardiac arrest, and our society accepts that whoever is closest by do whatever it is necessary to do. And, we are talking about Africa, are we not? A place where there is NO other option to receive the help vitally and emergently necessary?

What is this about this banal concern about the impact on “culture, expertise or long term effect by preaching on The Meaning of Life and the Truth About God?” For heaven’s sake, is this not precisely what it is about? That the culture and the person be impacted in a fundamental and transforming way? Are we so complacently asleep that we have lost the sense of how radical the message ought to be? The complaint about reading from someone else’s script and not being a true witness denies the possibility of the Spirit taking charge, and that we too preach, using the messages of the writers of the Bible. Or do we have to each have a full revelation by personal, direct fiat?

But enough said. This response may be too off the prevailing philosophy of the Association of Adventist Forums to even be published. I personally rejoice that somewhere there are people who are taking the last words to Go into all the World seriously, and not just lambasting and criticizing. The work indeed, if we believe the prophecies, will be finished by those least equipped, using means that appear inappropriate. Come on guys, let’s either lead, follow or get out of the way! You may want to read the recent book by John Piper “What Jesus Demands from the World” to see how radical we ought to be, including even using means such as a DVD to spread the Message, with students being challenged to themselves experience transformation in the same process!!!

Izak F. Wessels

Izak,

Piper's "Let the Nations be Glad" is also a good read.

Izak,

Were you talking to me? May I ask what country are you from? And what part of Africa have you served in in/direct evangelism as an expat missionary? Besides the authors you recommend, have you read anything else written especially by African, Asian and Latin American Christians about evangelism and missions in their respective countries? Just asking.

Izak

Did you listen to the YouTube bit? I have nothing against young people evangelizing. But if that fluff was representative of their understanding of the Christ Event, then I don't think it worth the trip.

Each year my church sends students to South or Central America to build a church or some other project. Of course, they ask for support. My response is: "What have you been doing all year right at home. As soon as I see one widow's porch repaired, her leaves raked, her fences renailed, and the trim on the house repainted, I'll be the first to contribute one fare." To me a boat ride, or a plane ticket doesn't make a missionary. I want to see some local elbow grease and home grown calluses: I would also like to hear a testimony on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I'll make my investment. It is like the story about the Professor at UCLA when asked how many students did they have on campus. His reply was: "OH, I guess about 1 in a 100. So I agree the student average of Gospel messengers is about the same among pastors about 1 in a 100. Tom

Gaylene, you echoed my sentiments precisely.

I have just looked back through the comments and then to the title "This Evangelism Corrupts Adventism". This type of evangelism has been and is, in most places, Adventism. Adventism is a system of understanding based beliefs that are defiantly pronounced to be unique and vital unto eternity. Adventism is to be declared and argued.. Adventism is God's True Church and so on. No matter what is suggested here and there in pockets of the world, this is for the most part what it is.

Ryan, I enjoyed your story. It brought out in the end that some people feel better taking sugar water and who is to say that it has hurt them unless of coarse there is something better. It would only be honest to admit that many people who go to faith healers and prosperity teachers feel better also.

Overall young people are very idealistic and are looking for a place or way to make a difference or at least stake out their territory, an identity. It is a resource and a great temptation for exploiters. The question is, when does it turn from creating opportunities for development to exploitation? Young people can be conditioned to march willingly into battle.

To all of you who are arguing that the canned approach is still effective, I agree.

If there are a bunch of homeless people in Los Angeles, they'll probably take free Campbell's tomato soup from a can if we give it to them all. They'll still get a little nourishment from it, and it'll keep them a alive for a little while.

On the other hand, they might prefer a bowl of my dad's signature, home-made minestrone soup. The latter will probably be more nourishing, more sustaining, and just plain better tasting.

But you're right if what you're saying is that hungry people will take either one if what they've got is nothing.

That may be part of the reason why canned evangelism is effective in places like Africa, parts of Southeast Asia, and other "developing" nations. It may not be the best or healthiest, but it'll do.

"The Lima Bean Gospel" a recent article in "Christianity Today" highlights what should be the Christian's action.

"The apparent smallness of our gospel is directly related to the smallness of the church's love. When prominent Christmas voices call for protests and boycotts over things like our freedom to say 'Merry Christmas,' the gospel seems very small indeed. If, by contrast, such voices called the church in America to give away its Christmas billions to the poor and needy around the world--as an act of incarnational love--that would leave a very different impression of the faith we profess, and offer a far greater hope for a love-hungry world.

"It would be a new day for our testimony to the immensity and scope of the gospel if we lived out persevering, sacrifical love for people near and far, especially for those without power, without money, without education, without food, without sanitation, without safety, without faith.

"We come to know the meaning of love by loving and being loved by particular people...We don't come to know love first as a broad category and then as a particular instance. Rather, only if we are loved in particular do we gradually come to love more broadly."

Is an apocalyptic message more important to most of the world than a message, demonstrated of love personified?

Just want to squeeze in a compliment- thanks, Spectrum Blog for becoming more of what you claim to be- diverse. And thanks Izak et al for adding that.

I like Christ's view that includes the "gospel" of His name, the apocalyptic and love. Mt.24:6-14.

6 “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 “But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 “And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 “And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 “And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 “But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.

Dick, Bless your heart

You confuse Christianity and Adventism. Take away Dan 8:14
and you have nothing to argue about if you plan to argue Adventism.

Christianity is another issue altogether. There are many who make a better arguement for Christ than does SDA power point "evangelistic programming". SDA evangelism you just need an on and off switch, a shill, and a gullable audience. The Book of Revelation is about the Alpha and Omega not about 666!

The Book of Revelation is about Blessed Assurance and not about things that go bump in the night!.You can scare people into a tank but you can't scare them into heaven.

So why put our young people with a evangelist with the "best" record. Why not put our young people in touch with the Alpha and Omega of our being and our salvation--that is what God is trying to do through John. "Blessed Assurance Jesus is Mine!" "I Love to Tell the Story." Wouldn't those make better headlines that "Will Russia Rule the World"? Tom

And to your heart Tom, a reciprocal blessing. I do believe we have said the same thing.

Dick

Thanks

I must have been a left handed reader. Sorry. But thanks for the blessing--it is bedtime and I need a good sleep knowing someone agrees. Tom

Wow! It is certainly quite impressive how many folks are willing to get on line when there is a contentious topic!
To answer some of the questions (or were they challenges???) posed:

a. To Joselito Coo: In fact, I AM an African, born and raised and lived there for most of my adult life. I was convinced about the SDA message at the end of high school, and after getting my MD degree (in Africa) spent time as a missionary doctor in some of our hospitals. I still speak one of the local languages, and we are actively involved still in supporting some of the institutions there. Does that qualify me as having enough knowledge about the situation or do I misunderstand your question? I remain fundamentally convinced that indeed the Christian missionaries (including SDA's) were very significantly beneficial to Africa, or for that matter, other countries that they have entered. For those who want to damn anything Western (including Christianity) as being inherently evil and damaging, please look at some of the books by Rodney Stark: The Victory of Reason; and For the Glory of God.

b. To Tom: Yes, I did look at the promotional video; actually twice, since some of the kids who went out actually had lived in my home. I disagree with your critique that their understanding was simply "fluff." Tom, why do we want everyone to be just like us, and we condemn them for doing something good? In Mark 9 Jesus tells John that he should NOT stop someone who is casting out devils in Jesus' name, and I believe we need to do the same: let us rather encourage, and help those who are willing to expend the effort and take the risk than lambast them as unsophisticated and without sufficient "theologizing." You may certainly keep from supporting any and all mission projects until the Church has taken care of the local needs; in my experience, it is precisely after such an overseas trip that the participants come back with greater enthusiasm and willingness to do what is needed locally as well. That trip may well be the turning point for some young person: it was for me, when during student days there was the opportunity to go help build a classroom at a mission school. Simply because people are fallible and the enthusiasm may dwindle is no reason to cynically condemn the whole process as being wasteful: do read the concluding comments by Christ about giving just a cup of cold water in His name!

Let me make it clear: I do not deny the right of Church Members to critique what is being done; obviously we are all far from perfect. The problem comes when the criticism is a smug facade to justify personal sloth or worse, with the essence of a self-sacrificing gospel being watered down to just a set of correct beliefs. In the end, it will depend on whether someone actually went out and gave just a cup of cold water, or whether the person that could have given a full meal condemned the lack of nutrients in that cup of water as making it an evil act. C'mon guys: like it or not, the SDA message is going to be seen as even more radical and unpopular: let us stop taking cheap shots at some of the efforts being made to seriously fulfill the gospel comission!

I applaud all the Folkenbergs, Finleys, Bullons, Smiths, Sanchez, Brown, Perez, Souzas, and all of those that make an effort around the world to preach the Gospel.
Anybody can say what is done wrong. It is easy to point and disect what has been done. What is not easy is to pray, plan, organize, preach, travel, and struggle for the salvation of souls. I am sure there are things that get out of the control of the evangelists. We are not a "perfect" body. Sure, I believe those wrong doings need to be corrected.
I would prefer to hear more ideas, concepts, plans to reach the unreached, instead of becoming theologoides and put down those that are making a sincere effort to fulfill the great commission.
Let us not become specialists on how-not-to-do-evangelism, and let us go out there and reach our neighbors, co workers, friends and relatives and tell them the story of calvary.

I applaud all the Folkenbergs, Finleys, Bullons, Smiths, Sanchez, Brown, Perez, Souzas, and all of those that make an effort around the world to preach the Gospel.
Anybody can say what is done wrong. It is easy to point and disect what has been done. What is not easy is to pray, plan, organize, preach, travel, and struggle for the salvation of souls. I am sure there are things that get out of the control of the evangelists. We are not a "perfect" body. Sure, I believe those wrong doings need to be corrected.
I would prefer to hear more ideas, concepts, plans to reach the unreached, instead of becoming theologoides and put down those that are making a sincere effort to fulfill the great commission.
Let us not become specialists on how-not-to-do-evangelism, and let us go out there and reach our neighbors, co workers, friends and relatives and tell them the story of calvary.

Is there a better way? How successful on a long-term basis is what is presently being done? Are there ways more appropriate to the many various groups and cultures that should be addressed?

Many here havd made suggestions of different, more effective ways to "evangelize." What are you suggesting? How can prayer, preaching, traveling and struggling bring salvation to souls? Sincerity never guarantees success. To charge ahead with a program that might have been appropriate 50-75 years ago indicates no consideration for the prospective audience; only the rote program that becomes automatic for the presenters. We can and must do better than that. (See the stats for the Central California Conference to determine the (in)adequacy of public evangelism.)

I agree that the evangelism of yesteryear is no longer very effective here in the States or in Europe or Australia. But I believe it is still effective in the third world countries, escpecially if it is followed up the way it is in the Southern Asia Division, with volunteer workers who stay for two or more years to ground new converts, and with their sponsorship plan to send the children of new converts to Adventist schools where they can be educated as future leaders.

I think an effective method of sharing the gospel here in America is that of becoming good friends with neighbors and colleagues in the workplace or volunteer activities, and sharing naturally as part of that friendship.

Indeed, as a physician, I am very comfortable with “a nursing student handing a laryngoscope to a theology major for a life changing week of orotracheal intubation in Africa.” Indeed, that is precisely what is required WHEN THE REALLY QUALIFIED DOCTORS (ARE UNWILLING TO HELP!!!!) OR UNAVAILABLE, as is always the case during a cardiac arrest, and our society accepts that whoever is closest by do whatever it is necessary to do. And, we are talking about Africa, are we not? A place where there is NO other option to receive the help vitally and emergently necessary?

Izak,

Honestly, I was stunned by the above remarks, more so after learning you're an African and a physician as well! What country in Africa were you born and which mission hospitals there did you serve before moving to the USA? Thanks.

Izak

I don't want anyone to just like me. I want everyone to reflect that they had been with Jesus. These kids sounded just like a return from a first visit to DisneyLand.

Purpose in a meaningful encounter should come before excitment. Joy as a part of a job well done. I like Robert Browning poem Ben Ezra

"Be our joy three parts pain,

...Rejojoice we are allied
To that which doeth provide
And not Partake, effet, and not receive
A spark disurbs our clod,
Nearer we hold of God.
Who gives, than of his tribes that take, I must believe.

I don't blame the kids. I applaude their eargerness and energy. I question only their preparation. Try standing true among 240 infantrymen as a Christian non-combatant for 33 months. To have in the last three months, the Company commander saying: "Tom, I'm putting you in charge tonite. I have to hang one on. I know you can handle things until you get me sobered up. Or having your "buddies say: "Tom your not afraid, you go on a head and we will cover you and all you have is a bandage scissors, acouple of morophine Syrettes, and a tin plated Gospel of John.

I don't knock the concept. I question the preparation. Tom

Why, oh why, is the word "mission" nearly always given the adjective "foreign"? When there is an abundance of opportunity in any city or town here in the U.S. where people are desperately in need? Why must it always be to some other country than our own? Non-SDA younbg church members in my town are frequently on video and the newspaper doing such things as helping to paint an elderly person's home on low income, re-roofing a house, working in soup kitchens feeding the hundreds of homeless every day, distributing warm clothing and blankets to those who need them, and much more. Not nearly as exciting as a long trip to Wherever.

All the other churches found more than enough needs to keep them busy right under the nose of the church. Reminds me of a familiar SDA saying: "He doesn't necessarily want to be a foreign missionary, just a 'returned' missionary." That's where the glory is: dressing up in native costume, doing the camp meeting and GC circuit. Sounds just like what Jesus and the disciples did, right?

Again,
It is not either/or...

It is not "foreign OR local" but both...each with the gift and commission God has given.

Christ's witness was "both" local and "afar."

"And when day came, He departed and went to a lonely place; and the multitudes were searching for Him, and came to Him, and tried to keep Him from going away from them. 43 But He said to them, “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose.”
Lk.4:42,43.

But Jesus' ministry never extended outside Judea. Paul and the apostles certainly traveled extensively, however.

I did say "afar."...but there was plenty to repair and heal in Capernum...no need to go "elsewhere"!

I am the ERC director. I've been reading the ongoing discussion with much interest! Just to add something else to talk about: 1) Southern Adventist University (SAU) expects that all Theology majors preach a full evangelistic series before graduation (this past Summer, 100% of Juniors preached 18 sermons). 2) The School of Religion at SAU covers 100% of traveling expenses, food, and lodging for three weeks to Theology majors who do evangelism. 3) This past Summer the ERC not only sent 59 preachers abroad but also sent 37 preachers to Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Florida, and Mississipi. 4) This coming Summer 30 will go with me to Ghana, 15 to Tanzania, and 25 to Guatemala. 5) SAU made provission for five employees a year (not including Religion professors) to participate in these evangelistic projects without using vacation time. 6) This past Summer, preachers from 23 different majors and schools participated preached full evangelistic series. 7) Non-Theology majors who went to India, or go to Africa must pay only $750 for a round ticket, food, and lodging for three weeks.

Why is SAU sending students, professors, administrators, and staff to preach full evangelistic series? There are several reasons that justify the investment of money, time, and effort:

First, preachers return with a better understanding of the biblical doctrines. Many were baptized as children, some without proper instruction before baptism. They had to study and explain all doctrines to others. This is one of the best ways to understand and remember anything.

Second, they come back as better Christians. Some even experienced conversion in their own evangelistic series! For many reasons, many were on the brink of spiritual disaster. Some had not done much in their home church and were not doing much during the school year. However, as they offered appeals and made altar calls during their evangelistic series, they saw the gospel from a new perspective.

Third, participants return with a new self-image. Many of them had never offered a prayer in public but for 16 nights and 3 Sabbath mornings they stood in front of a live audience. For sure, on the first presentations they were under much stress, but at the end of the first week most of them felt already comfortable in front of an audience.

Fourth, they come back with a better understanding of the world. Many had never gone abroad or even gone far from their home state. As they interacted with different people, many belonging to different cultures or in another country, students learned to appreciate better their own culture and become more sensitive to others’ needs.

Fifth, preachers made a positive contribution to a local church. They preached Jesus and His truth. Our students brought “fresh air” to many pulpits. Many church members experienced revival while hundreds experienced conversion.

Sixth, participants come back with a wider perspective of their church. In doing evangelism, they were exposed to varied and different forms of church life and work. They witnessed different forms of music, worship, social interaction, and involvement. Some of these ideas will help them to serve better in their own local church.

Seventh, they learn things they would had never learned in a classroom. They received training before departure, but as they used the principles learned, they learned by doing.

Eigth, they will have a story to tell. The memories of their participation in a major evangelistic effort will impact the rest of their life. These memories will inspire them in time of crisis and will remind them of what God was able to do through them.

Ninth, they learned the importance and the power of prayer. There were many people praying for them: their families, their sponsors, church members, and their friends. God empowered them with the Holy Spirit. As a result of these prayers and of the many hours they spent on their knees, they experienced something bigger than themselves.

Tenth, SAU is preparing church leaders for today and for the future. Many will become lawyers, teachers, architects, nurses, businessmen, and surgeons who already experienced something that many pastors have never done.

Am I undersanding you correctly when you say that the theology majors have 100% of their expenses covered for wherever they travel to preach and do evangelism? And that the non-theology majors must pay $750 for somewhat similar expenses?

There you have the beginnings of the "priestly" order and the lower classes: business, economics, education, and anything "below" theology. Is it a wonder that the expected deference for the theological degree is somewhat suspect? What justification is there for such preferential treatment? Unless, of course, SAU is considered first and foremost as a biblical seminary training institute.

Joselito
I am providing this information on your insistence, but the prupose behind your inquiry is not obvious.
I was born in South Africa, and worked for variable periods in Malawi (Malamulo Hospital) and in Lesotho (Maluti Adventist Hospital) both as physician and as superintendent. Enough information?
Forgive me for possibly being too sensitive about the pernicious and inappropriately reverse racism where ethnic groups reject any and all contacts with other cultures. Christianity is seen as pre-eminently Western, and thus treated with contempt, without realizing how much the underlying principles have been of phenomenal benefit to the average person.
The use of sophisticated equipment by a relatively untrained person, with the obvious potential for life-threatening complications is well known to me: So often the severity of the cases coming to my attention far exceeded my capabilities, but since there was no other option but to do one's best, one proceeded. If the patient is dying (i.e., we are talking about spiritual matters too) then whoever is there may have to provide the best they are capable of, even if the absent "expert" may scathingly criticize the technique as being inept, "insenstive to the cultural context" or worse.
The fact remains: if nothing is done, nothing will be achieved. It is so much better to have attempted (with appropriate reliance on help from above) to do something than to have wasted the opportunity by focusing on the irrelevant distractions that the evil one will want us to keep in mind.
May I ask where you are from, and what the reasons are for your question? Have you spent time in mission service?

Tom
Let me state my abiding respect for the experiences you recount. Few folks within the organization have had to REALLY face the extreme challenges that may be part of another person's call.
I also applaud your clarifying that the issue is not the going, but the preparation: however, the original posting was rather slanted and far less inspiring than critical.
Your wanting to improve quality is laudable; perhaps it would be immensely beneficial to have this kind of dialogue result in a closer involvement with various outreach efforts. Not to leave a (false?) impression of degrading condemnation but truly to help improve and enhance.
Yes, I do agree that the ebullience and hyperexcitability may be inappropriate - But I must also point out that on Pentecost the allegation was that they were drunk!!!!!
If we take the obligation implicit in the Commission for Disciples: to make disciples by TEACHING, and most chillingly, to cause OBEDIENCE (true, heartfelt, meaningful instead of rote, formalistic and meaningless acts) is a most daunting task. Maybe it is precisely to make us less complacent, smug or self-confident that this discussion is actually taking place...
I want to challenge you to join with those of us who want to see the work finished! Yes, you have a very important place with the few in the church who are wanting to lift up the banner!
Help us all to make it happen by being the one who effects those changes that are needed to make the outreach achieve the greatest possible results!

Our universities were originally created as centers for the training of missionaries [not only pastors]. What today is Andrews University was once "Emmanuel Missionary College." What today is Southern Adventist University was once "Southern Missionary College." It would be very good if our institutions recapture the vision that created them.
Concerning what Elaine calls "preferential treatment," donnors who believe that Theology majors should be trained in evangelism make possible to offer this opportunity to these students. Please, help us to offer this opportunity to all majors!

At Pentacost, the audience was hearing preaching in their own tongue. The Gift of the Spirit was not the gift of tongue but of Ears! I don't want to put a damper on enthusiasm. I greatly enjoy it. We had a blast as soon as we past customs in Mexicali and got on the LLU 6 x 6 truck for the last 250 miles home. We were exausted, dirty, thirsty, famished. In Indio there was a root beer stand. We stopped the truck and drank a least a quart of root beer and finished off with a hugh Black Cow.

No the problem was the clip had no substance--that I could make out at least. I think Carlos should publish the threshold C.V. all the typical student evangelist, so we can get a clearer view of the competence of these world travelers. What I saw could have been a swim party. Tom

I remember when it was EMC, and when SAU was Southern Junio College (where my Dad received his ministerial training, somewhat abbreviated.

If "our institutions recapture the vision that created them," would they be able to survive training only ministerial students?

Too many new converts have been encouraged to go into the ministry, regardless of their academic qualifications or ability. Surely, there are no limits in doing God's work with any of the professions taught at Adventist universities. Some of us have also been in churches with very poor to mediocre pastors who would likely have been more successful in a host of other occupations; but not necessarily one with a guaranteed life income.

Theology majors are required to preach a full evangelistic series when they complete their junior year, at the end of FOUR semesters of Preaching and TWO semesters of Personal Evangelism. They take Public Evangelism as they preach an evangelistic series at home or abroad.

Non-Theology majors go whenever they want. They are usually sophmores or juniors. At the Evangelistic Resource Center (ERC), all of them are screened in a personal interview. In required boot camps organized by the ERC, they are trained on theological, cultural, technical, and practical issues such as preaching with a translator. They become familiar with the software and graphics they will use several months before the series (by January 14 they have already received the sermons they will use in July). The ERC has a preaching booth where they become familiar with the equipment, experience preaching, record their performance, and implement what they have learned in the boot camps. We provide everybody with laptops, video projectors, and all the necessary graphics for health messages, family talks, and doctrinal presentations. The materials they use are contextualized to the host culture in both form and content. However, one of the most valuable learning experiences take place every day as they preach, during 3-4 hours of prayer, discussion, group evaluation, and practice. In these mentoring sessions they have devotional time, share experiences, and receive instructions from both locals and ERC supervisors. "The competence of these world travelers" is gained on their knees and in careful preparation. The ERC has sent more than 300 preachers en the last six years who have baptized more than 7000 people. These results are a combination of human participation with divine power.

I just wanted to thank some of the new voices that joined this conversation, especially Izak and Carlos--it's so good to hear from a true spectrum. I've greatly enjoyed following this conversation and I know it's pushed me to think of what "witness" means in my life and community more deeply.

I too have followed this thread with interest.

While no longer an Adventist, I was one for 45 years and have been "only" a Christian for the last 3.

I am curious if the " Full Evangelistic Series" that each of the theology students must present are the typical "tried and true" Revelation Seminar and such.

What I hear from Pastor Martin, is again a lot of numbers....series held....sermons preached....conversions....baptisms.....

I hear alot about preaching the "doctrines", but little about preaching the "Gospel". It still seems that many equate the Adventist doctrines as being the Gospel. I find that sad.

I understand that it typically takes about 3-4 weeks of sermons to cover the Adventist fundamental beliefs, and hence the "full evangelistic effort". I am curious if these are canned sermons that are typically uniform and each student pastor has to show proficiency in these. Or are the student pastors allowed to give there "evangelistic effort" on say, the study of the book of Romans or the book of Galatians.

It seems to me, that if we are wanting to share the "Good News of the Gospel" we should be sermoning on the Epistle's of Paul, and the words of Jesus in the book of John.

We should not need to be having to count "conversions". We cannot convert anybody, only the power of the Holy Spirit can. Somehow many feel that baptism into the Adventist Church equals conversion. From where I am today it doesn't seem to equate anymore.

I spent 20 years in a little Adventist Church that had at least one full evangelistic series per year. When I left, there were fewer members attending than when I started.

I now attend a wonderful grace filled Baptist Church that 20 years ago had 200 members, and today has sevices Saturday and Sunday with more than 2200 members and about 700 non members like myself in attendance.

They have never had an "evangelistic series, or effort".

What they have had, is growth through sharing the Good News of the Gospel. They feed the poor, they shelter the homeless, they provide for single parents, and those who divorce. They have ministry seven days a week.

They minister to the physical, emotional and especially the spiritual needs of their members, and also the community at large.

They have built sister churches in Mexico, and fund an AIDS hospital in Africa.

If you want church growth, and to share the Gospel, you need to do the ministry that our Lord Jesus did. Jesus, gave hope and assurance. He gave unconditional love and acceptance to those in need and he offered a better way. The gospel message is not one of diets and days, nor of beasts or fear.

Sharing the Good News about Jesus, is our calling, that is the Gospel Commission.

Randy

Randy makes a excellent point. Christianity is indivisable. A walk through the 28 Fundamental Beliefs is recruitment more than evangelism. Never-the-less. the initial point was preparation, evaluation, results.

An accounting of the stewardship: should it be in the growth of the students and/or in the gathering of souls?

We all caught the enthusiasm but little else. The Medium may have been the problem or more likely the casting--trying to cram one aspect over more relevant issues.

The issue the bloggers have been interested in--what rejoicing is there in heaven? How do they count? How does one weight a three week series against eternal consequences.

We have no measuring tape for that one. What are motes to some are beams to others. Tom

I perceive a distorted understanding of what the gospel is all about! I find the "Good News of the Gospel" in what Randy calls "the 28 Fundamental Beliefs." Jesus died for me, raised from the dead, intercedes for me in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and is coming soon! The dead are sleeping in their graves and will resurrect when Jesus comes! The wicked are not being punished in Hell and will not be punished in fire forever! I can live healthier and longer thanks to principles I find in the Bible! The Day of Rest is an oasis in time that my spirit, body, mind, and family needs so much! The characterists of the True Church shown in the Bible have helped me to have a sense of purpose and direction. And so on and so forth. Doctrines are revelaed truths. All, absolutely all doctrines are centered on Jesus. A missing doctrine or a distorted one precules the understanding of the Plan of Salvation and is in itself bad news.

I find it interesting that Randy mentions "numbers" in a negative way at the beginniong of his posting but ends speaking of the numbers of his new found faith at the end of his comments...

Randy also refers to the work of "student pastors." Remember that most of the evangelists are not Theology majors and are not interested in becoming pastors. Evangelisnm is not just for pastors. The sharing of the Good News is everybody's responsibility, including Computer, Nursing, and Visual Arts majors. I do evangelism because I am saved in Jesus and I want others to know Him.

Concerning preaching a series based on the Book of Romans or on the Sermon of the Mountain, we should not confuse "evangelism" with "nurture." Evangelism aims to lead a non-believer to an understanding and acceptance of Jesus and His Truth. You may take the long path of studing the entire Bible or portions of it until all the pieces of the puzzle are together or you may take the shorter path of identifying the revealed truths found in the Bible stories and sermons. Nurture is indispensable to help a person grow and it takes from day one until the last day of the Christian experience.

Concerning the relationship between conversion and baptism, I believe that baptism is a matter of obedience. Jesus never leads to disobedience. Of course, conversion is the key but if someone "Lord, Lord" but is not willing to follow the Lord in baptism or in other areas, I have grounds to question that "conversion." True, not all who are baptized are really converted, but when faith and obedience are combined, we have a good formula!

Taking two to five weeks before leading a person to baptism helps people to make a responsible decision, one that should not be based on the emotions of one good sermon. In the Great Commission we are instructed to "teach them all things," not only the ABC of the gospel but the requirements of the gospel and "the whole counsel of God."

Randy,
Thanks for your input. I agree with you that sharing the good news about the Kingdom of God/Jesus and how one enters it --in Christ-- is the Gospel Commission. The results of that entry are given by some EVIDENCES ...They (help) feed the poor, they (help) shelter the homeless, they (help)provide for single parents, and (help)those who divorce ... and a continued mission work abroad.

On the opposite side of this issue, it is my view that some on this blog and other more "liberal denominations" emphasize only "evidences" and forget the uniqueness of Christ who alone Justifies and offers eternal salvation. They often offer hope in earthly governments and enlist their political parties and programs rather than the slow but lasting effective work of the church to change character. They begin to be seduced into seeing the "body politic and the world" as "the church."

It is BOTH the proclaimation of the historical message of Christ and Him crucified and the resulting evidences that we need.

My complaints are not about having "general" overviews of prophecy in a series. I mentioned Mt.24:4-14 in a blog.

The problem ends up being in proportionality. Usually our efforts of trying to be the unique " specific prophetic-sure word of prophecy people of God" overrides how one enters the Kingdom of Christ.

It trumps assurance in Christ for salvation and being kept in that salvation by the Spirit of God who kindly called us in the first place. It seems to override the "simple" daily walk sharing the "simple gifts" we have with others and as we can Christ. It seems efforts to promote OUR uniqueness overrides the uniqueness of Christ..."We preach NOT ourselves but Christ ...." 2 Cor.4:3-6.

I personally have no problem with ERC if the above are being sought out and "done in proportion"...but I would like to see evidences of that change in our procedures...hopefully they are taking place.
------------------
P.S. Alex, perhaps you can voice some ideas with Carlos since he has joined the discussion.

P.S. Carlos, there is a vast difference in having "some truths" and being the "true church." Israel had the very oracles of God...and became proud of it. Perhaps humility demands that some members of "visible" denominations are a part of the "spiritual invisible true church"(the true remnant) known only to God. This is the problem I see most often...we are "selling ourselves...the "true church" rather than Christ the Lord of the Church Universal.

Regards

"...if nothing is done, nothing will be achieved. It is so much better to have attempted (with appropriate reliance on help from above) to do something than to have wasted the opportunity by focusing on the irrelevant distractions that the evil one will want us to keep in mind.
May I ask where you are from, and what the reasons are for your question? Have you spent time in mission service?"

I was born in the Philippines to parents of different Asian ethnicities. Answering your last question: Yes.

Based on your own description, I'm getting the impression the ERC's notion of mission is nothing less than an emergency situation, transpiring as in a spiritual battlefield. In your mind, gospel bearers must beware of enemies inspired by the evil one! How cool to make false assumptions regarding those you've engaged in this conversation.

What's the purpose of my questions? So we can come to terms. Despite our common use of English as our means of communication, I sense we can't safely assume we've understood each other even when we both listened (read) carefully what each of us is saying.

I believe what we've tried to address in this thread is: Does traditional SDA public evangelism, as promoted by the ERC among SAU students and faculty, cause much good or any harm? Good results in what sense?

The ERC has sent more than 300 preachers en the last six years who have baptized more than 7000 people. These results are a combination of human participation with divine power.

There's no doubt in my mind, though we've not been told how Carlos G. Martin came up with his figures, the more than 7000 baptized resulted from divine-human effort.

Carlos happens to be one of several members of the SAU School of Religion faculty I know (5?) who spent some years serving in my part of the world. I've written elsewhere regarding accession and growth stats in my division. Here's my interpretation of the data one more time:

First, the annual growth rate has not changed significantly from year to year regardless of the number of public evangelistic missions from abroad.

Second, the difference between the annual accession and growth rates in the 3 Philippine unions from 1995 thru 2005 translates into dropped and missing members.

What seems clear, to me at least, is the flurry of activities we normally associate with traditional public evangelisms from abroad in my country resulting in mass baptisms is an independent variable whose connection with growth in membership has not been established. We like to assume there's a direct cause and effect. However, the evidence for the relationship is not there. Nonetheless, if it makes gospel bearers feel good so be it! And if the experience has been genuinely lifechanging for them, well and good! God bless!

Am finding (and hope I’m not alone in this) that this thread is directly pertinent to this quarters Sabbath Schools lessons on discipleship. Lots of good, troubling, creative, and hopeful ideas here…

This past weeks lesson really troubled me in using Mark 16:20 as memory text; “...and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the SIGNS that accompanied it.” Had to admit -- and the whole class had to admit -- we really didn’t have any “signs” to accompany our own brands of living a life that qualified us as fulfilling this text. (If in fact we ARE called to “do” this sort of thing…) That lead to a rousing discussion of what might be a modern “sign”.

At the very end of class, a “visitor” spoke up. We knew her, but she had sneaked in late. She is a missionary who believes she has been called to witness in Muslim West Africa. She’s black, so fits in to the community. And she was back in the States for a few weeks. Our church is one of a few who are sponsoring her. She had us spellbound as she talked about just living quietly among the people. And, it seemed what she did most, was just listen. (HEY WAIT!! THE TEXT SAYS GO OUT AND PREACH!! NOTHING ABOUT LISTENING!!) And she worried that her mission was not being seen as a success, because “I just don’t have any numbers to give you.” (Gulp) “I hope you can be as patient with me as the Holy Spirit is with us.” (Another gulp)

And yet, weird stuff WAS happening. Women from other areas having “dreams” of a black woman who read a black book; a book from which bread emanated in great abundance. And the woman brings not just her family, but nearly her whole tribe to see this woman…

Oh my goodness; very humbling stuff… She talked about the need to be still -- and be a willing vessel… about the less used tools of evangelism; hands and ears...

Can we believe God can and will use ANYTHING to reach out to us humans??
Even the “imperfect”??

"For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." "But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news! Romans 10:13-15

I think there is a Spiritual that has a phrase: "Everybody talking about heaven ain't goin there!"

The topic became an issue because the promo was ineffective;
It showed enthusiasm without content.

This was later corrected by Carlos. There indeed had been an attempt to academically prepared the students for such
outreach. One can say more about the effectiveness of traditional SDA evangelism. That would be wide of the mark of this thread. Which I saw was enthusiasm without substance. Tom

After reading all postings, I will share a few concerns related to our definition of "evangelism" and our understandig of "mission." If all we do is to give a sandwich to the hungry and help people to become vegetarian, there will be many healthy people in Hell thanks to SDAs. They need Jesus. Smiling is good and necessary, but is not enough for sinners to receive salvation. The work of God on earth will be finished by pastors and carpenters, secretaries and nurses, teachers and students participanting in missions and doing evangelism. Leaving our comfort zone takes effort, time, money, courage, and lots of prayer. The ERC aims to motivate, train, and send as many professors, staff, and students as possible to do evangelism at home and abroad.

Why going abroad when there is so much to do at home? We need to lift up our eyes and look at the fields! Think about this: About 32% of all those who live on earth say they are Christians (inluding all Catholics, Protestants, cults, sects, and nomional Christians. Another third of the world's population are non-Christians who have Christian neighbors. But more the other third of the world's population living in the 21st century are non-Christians who have never seen a Christian in their lives!

By 2,000 there were about 1,500 ethno-linguistic groupings of roughly one million people each in which SDAs had absolutely no presence. These people groups represent about one-fourth of the world’s population, or 1.5 billion!

We have no SDA church in Tibet, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afganistan, North Korea, Western Sahara, Syria, Brunei, Maldives, Buthan, Yemen, Somalia, Chad, Lybia, and Mauritania. We boast about the fact that SDAs have written or oral work in 885 languages and dialects, but very seldom we hear the fact that, according to The World Christian Encyclopedia, there are 3,511 languages and more than 30,000 dialects! Yet we are told that "when this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people, then the end will come."

On top of all that, there is so much to do at home! There are at least six times more Muslims than SDAs in the United States of America! "In Chicago, which was once considered the heart of Mid-western America, there are now more Moslems than Methodists, more Buddhists than Presbyterians, and more Hindus than Congregationalists." In our own backyard, in the city of Chattanooga, TN, there is a Hindu temple, two Muslims mosques, a Baha'i temple, three Jewish sinagugues, and two Buddhist temples. So many near us have never heard the word "Adventist" and so many millions all around the world (about 1.5 billion) have never even heard the name of Jesus!

The work of God will be finished by committed people going to non-entered areas and corageous people leaving the comfort zones and sharing Jesus where He is "not named." It will take much more than just prayers and smiles. It will take trained professionals and unmskilled students filled with the Holy Spirit. Alexander Carpenter's explicit suggestion that the mobilization of students from all majors and people from all areas of life to do evangelism is corrupting Adventism, is only a mirror of the mentality of many in our Church. Izak Wessels was right when he wrote, "Let’s either lead, follow, or get out of the way!"

I believe that "with such and army of young people" the Lord can do great things! Pray with me to the Lord of the Harvest to send out more laborers to the harvest.

Carlos G. Martin
Evangelistic Resource Center (ERC), director
Southern Adventist University
martin@southern.edu

Correction.
According to The World Christian Encyclopedia there are 13,511 languages in the world, not 3,511.
So much work to do!
"Here am I! Send me!"

"If all we do is to give a sandwich to the hungry and help people to become vegetarian, there will be many healthy people in Hell thanks to SDAs."

Now compare that to what Jesus said about the Last Judgment in Matt, 25:31-46. Last verse: "I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me," And they will go away to eternal pujnishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." These were those who professed no particular doctrines but fed the hungry, visited the sick, and clothed the naked.

There is no better way to present the Living Gospel than through such actions. Fewer people care about what you have to say, but will not refuse help when they are hungry or in need.

To assume that everyone must hear about what Adventists believe cannot be supported by the Bible. There have millions lived and died, and still are, who have never heard of Christians or even Adventists. To imply that they will be lost unless those millions do hear is to usurp the Holy Spirit who works on honest hearts wherever and whatever they believe: Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Daoists, or? Will God halt births and deaths until everyone has heard of Christianity or Adventists?

Bob--several years ago, my DH and I lived and taught English in a Chinese teachers' college in NE China through a program called ITS (now defunct--through the GC--defunct for good reasons). And what did we learn about "evangelism" among our Chinese students? We must, must, must spend time with them, get to know them, listen to them, learn about them, participate in their lives--then, they might listen if they heard about Christianity. We spent so much time traveling with and talking with our students. We have one family who considers me their daughter (and now my sons are their American grandsons--they take this very seriously). The last time we were there, my friend (this family's daughter) told me in all seriousness that I am a true NE Chinese person (I'm a 5'10" European American, so we had a good laugh about that).

There is a reason (besides communism) that this kind of packaged evangelism wouldn't work here. What matters most here is relationships (and I am increasingly convinced that what I've learned in China and now in HK is the most important thing anywhere, including the US--we just have forgotten that). One of my Chinese students from years ago, who eventually became a "fundamentalist" Christian, tells everyone that I was the one who introduced her to Christ, even though she used to argue incessantly with me and disagrees with many tenets of Adventism.

I wonder, Joselito, if there are those who, either within your culture, or from outside, strive to make disciples and friendships in the Philippines, or are you exclusively the recipient of outside "evangelism"? This takes so much time and commitment--to understand a culture, to understand people, to take time to listen and talk with them, to be patient about the numbers (we used to hear from the GC that we teachers in China were not producing "enough" baptisms and that we needed to work harder at it--those of us who were there just rolled our eyes and shook our heads).

M

M,

Sounds like you have right thinking.

All the best.

pat

After reading the article and commentaries explaining how our current evangelism, emphasizing the “ insane numbers game,” is corrupting Adventism, I think that I have discovered how this stress on “numerical growth” got started. I have concluded that Finley, Folkenberg, and Martin are not the ones to blame, but rather Dr. Luke. He is the one who started this trend two thousand years ago when he wrote his report about what happened following Saint Peter’s evangelistic sermon on Pentecost:

--“Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their numbers that day.”

Luke should have foreseen that this emphasis on numbers would be imitated by all the evangelists that were to follow throughout the ages. How did he dare to set such a bad example for all Christians to follow? In fact, the moment the thought crossed his mind to report the “numbers” he should have been stricken down like Ananias and Saphira for his horrific heresy.

Since we Americans are the enlightened ones about evangelism, we should teach those unsophisticated Adventists living in South America, the Philippines, and Africa about the proper way to measure evangelistic success, and teach them how to do this right. After all, didn’t Adventism originate in this highly enlightened North American country? Adventist around the world should be humble enough to learn from those who spawned Adventist evangelism!

PS.
Sorry to use the blog space but M. do you know if Dennis Johnson is still at HKAH? He was there in '96.

pat

Hi Pat--the name is familiar, but I have very little to do with HKAH--I'm out in Clearwater Bay, LOL.

M

I really sympathize with M's missisonary experience in China. I served as the NSD Ministerial Secretary and Division Evangelist (former Far Eastern Division) for a few years. I learned a few things concerning the traditional slow approach of missionary work and the new fast track of evangelism. In 2000 I went with a group of young people to the second largest city in Mongolia when there was not even one SDA. We carefully planned a contextualized evangelistc approach among Buddhists and atheists. One couple went ahead for nine months. I went for two weeks to do lead in harvest evangelism. We baptized 44. There are now two organized churches in that city.

You are in Hong Kong now. I went there perhaps 15 times during the eight years I lived in the area. My last evangelistic series there was in 2001 in pastor Linda Tsui's church. I worked with a group of students. We baptized 25 Chinese. I fully agree with you that "we must, must, must spend time with them, get to know them, listen to them, learn about them, participate in their lives--then, they might listen if they heard about Christianity." However, in addition to planting the seed we must plan for harvest. What some call "the fast track of evangelism" works when it is preceded by what you are doing. Please, pray and demand that someone will help you with the harvest!

This past Summer I went with 14 SAU students to India to work in 15 villages with no Christian presence. A couple of local Bible workers went ahead of us to each village and worked for three months. 7 students were highly trained Theology majors and 7 were from different majors and had never preached a sermon in their lives. We preached contextualized sermons for two weeks. Hundreds were baptized (more than a thousand by now) and 15 brick buildings brick were erected in those villages.

My point in this segment is that God will prospers the efforts of those who do their part, even if they are young students. However, there are principles that must be known and implemented. The Evangelistic Resource Center (ERC) aims to help these efforts. By the way, it takes much more than a promo DVD to motivate, train, and send 100 College students to do evangelism! Believe me.

Hi Carlos,

I have a question about the following: "However, in addition to planting the seed we must plan for harvest. What some call "the fast track of evangelism" works when it is preceded by what you are doing. Please, pray and demand that someone will help you with the harvest!"

Why must the "harvest" be done by someone from outside? This is what I don't understand. I always understood in China that in all probability, I was "sowing" and would not see the harvest, but I never assumed that the harvest would take place in an evangelistic series led by another foreigner. In fact, some of my students did later become Christians, but it was through the efforts of other Christian teachers. Others of them became Christian because of the influence of Chinese Christians. None of them have been baptized into SDAism, as far as I know. (to be honest, I'm relieved my good friend did not become SDA, because the SDA church in my home city in China is very combative and after too many fights with the local Sunday church has withdrawn itself in righteous indignation to a place outside the city to worship.)

And here in HK, I have seen at least one "evangelistic" campaign every year we've been here, but "the numbers" don't change. We are not addressing the heart needs of people in HK through these meetings, and they stay away in droves. I have a lot of respect for Linda and also for our theology students--but I just don't think that historic evangelism will work here--the people who have entered our church since I've been here (3 1/2 years) have come through 1) contacts at the middle school or college; 2) personal invitations to church and other functions, following a friendship; or 3) families who come because their children have been involved with VBS, Sabbath School, or Adventurers. Speaking for my church only, I can't think of one person who has joined because of outside evangelism.

M

I learned a few things concerning the traditional slow approach of missionary work and the new fast track of evangelism. In 2000 I went with a group of young people to the second largest city in Mongolia when there was not even one SDA. We carefully planned a contextualized evangelistc approach among Buddhists and atheists. One couple went ahead for nine months. I went for two weeks to do lead in harvest evangelism. We baptized 44. There are now two organized churches in that city.

Carlos,

FYI, below is the official stat for the Mongolia Field; please take a close look at the 2000 entry of 43 baptisms. After you left Mongolia, the Adventist church there continued to multiply. Such is characteristic of many new church plants that thrive in good soil.

Briefly, having served as a church planter myself (all pastors in my part of the world were expected to be evangelists as well), I'm for new church plants. Hope, however, that you can distinguish those who come to only harvest, entering into the labor of others. I believe that was M's point.

1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005
Churches
1 1 1 1 1 1 3 3
Companies
0 0 2 2 2 4 4 4
Beginning
Membership
29 37 62 109 261 429 531 721
Baptisms
8 24 43 151 168 103 176 158
Professions
of Faith
0 1 4 1 0 0 2 0

http://www.adventiststatistics.org/view_Summary.asp?FieldInstID=745320

Pat,

My son Jonathan spent a Sabbath in Hong Kong on his way to Shanghai last year. I'm not sure if Jonathan met Dennis Johnson but they had a brief e-mail communication. It seems that a daughter of Dennis took voice lessons in our mission school (the Adventist University) in the Philippines where my son had taught music.

Carlos,
Thanks so much for joining this conversation. It has been helpful to have your perspective. We have so much to learn from each other--and from the people with whom we wish to share Jesus.

To M,

I went about ten times to Japan. They have been planting the seed for years, but in the entire Japanese Union they are baptizing less than 300 a year. Hong Kong is having a net grow of about 100 a year. Most of baptism in Hong Kong are students in our schools, who will soon disappear when they feel that a church ruled by elderly does not use their talents not take care of their needs. Evidently, they need help.

One of my satisfaction was mentoring Pastor Terry Tsui and his wife, Pastor Linda Tsui. In 1993 they were my students in several classes related to Missions and Evangelism. I involved Terry in my evangelistic campaigns. At first, I preached to him, then he preached to me, and finally he preached to a live audience. He became my disciple. He became an effective evangelist, the only Chinese doing public evangelism in the last ten years. My last series with them was in 2001.

"Speaking for my church only, I can't think of one person who has joined because of outside evangelism." When was the last time that in your HK church they facilitated harvest? I did harvest evangelism three times in Hong Kong, mostly with Terry and Linda, and the Lord always blessed us with several families joining their churches. If insiders do close to nothing, outsiders who are sensitive to their culture may do better! Since you are considered to be an insider ("a true NE Chinese person"), have you considered doing harvest evangelism? No??? Just because you are a teacher? Even though you are "just a teacher," "do the work of an evangelist"! Approach Terry and tell him you want to try. He will coach you!

Izak Wessels was right when he wrote, "Let’s either lead, follow, or get out of the way!"

I wonder, Joselito, if there are those who, either within your culture, or from outside, strive to make disciples and friendships in the Philippines, or are you exclusively the recipient of outside "evangelism"?

M,

The above statement by Carlos, preceding your own query, reflects a siege mentality: a conquista model of evangelism. I've heard the same repeated many times in the past and it caused me to rethink my call to the Adventist ministry till I finally decided to leave in 1979. I'm still an Adventist though.

To your question about discipleship. Five-and-a-half years as a student in our mission college, under the mentorship of Gottfried Oosterwal and two La Sierra alumni as my religion professors, was part of the process of discipling me. My debt of gratitude to them is beyond measure. Aside from that, it wasn't until I met an American missionary couple who have lived since the 1950's among mountain tribal people in the northern Philippines that I began to appreciate, first hand, an entirely different approach to evangelism and mission. They kept a friendship house in the city so their young people from the mountain could have a safe place to stay while they attended one of the universities. I volunteered my time with them, both in the mountain and in the city, for a brief period of 10 years.

Carlos,

How dare you lay a guilt trip on someone by implying that they should be functioning as a public evangelist when you don't even know if that is one of their spiritual gifts. And that's what bothers me about this whole approach. It seems to ignore the idea that "there are many ministries but one spirit." It seems to devalue other ways of bringing people to Christ other than public evangelism. It ends up devaluing the gift of preaching with the idea that anyone can do it, and it devalues the gifts of other people with the idea that everyone should do it(public evangelism). Not everyone is called and gifted to preach as a public evangelist, the Bible makes this clear! So why impose this notion that you are not really doing the work unless you are preaching? Why not encourage people to find and to use their gifts in the way that God has uniquely designed them to make a difference in the world and for his kingdom? That's Biblical, and that's what we are supposed to be about!

Frank

This is another excellent conversation!

My special thanks to every one from Alex at AF to Carlos at SAU and all the rest of you!

Here is the gist of part of a conversation I once had with my father, Ralph S. Larson, who died in last August. We were on good terms.

Beginning with me:

"Do you know how many evangelistic meetings I have held in my ministry?"

"No."

"Zero."

"Do you know how many evangelistic meetings I plan to conduct in my ministry?"

"No."

"Zero."

"Have you ever been asked to lecture on religion and ethics from a SDA point of view at a non-SDA university?"

"No."

"I have."

"Whose pictures do you see on this poster?"

"Some well known atheists."

"Who else do you see?"

"You."

"Isn't this university poster sort of like an evangelistic flier?"

"Yes."

"Do you think you will ever be asked to do speak about our beliefs on a university campus?"

"No."

"I think I will."

"Yes."

"Don't we have different gifts?"

"Yes."

"Aren't they both imporant?"

"Yes."

"Wouldn't it be nice of you to give me a break?"

Yes."

"Shall we get something to eat?"

"Yes."

Although he held many successful evangelistic meetings all over the world, my father never baptized any one who became a SDA through these "efforts."

Thinking he was following Paul's example, he insisted that the new members bond with those who would be their pastors.

Many of these pastors had already served these converts very well and he respected that.

I respected my father for this and many other things.

Dave

In 1977, shortly after I was baptized, I attended a meeting at my church to discuss an activity called Ingathering. I had no clue what was going on. At one point my good friend Larry announced with obvious passion, "You can disfellowship me if you want, but I'm not going Ingathering!"

"Larry," I said, "you're willing to die for your God, but you're not willing to do this?"

He turned sad eyes on me. "I'm willing to die for my God," he responded, "but I'm not willing to blaspheme Him."

Stunned, I looked around at the people in the meeting. "What on earth do you do out there?"

Larry would not participate because the activity was not authentic: It did not truly reflect his God.

As Ryan eloquently suggests, the issue of evangelism is not "Whatever works." The central "whatever" question we must consider in evangelism, as Paul put it so pithily to the church at Philippi, is, "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."

In the end, that's what "works," anyway.

Joselito

Great testimony. Evangelism includes a willingness to listen, a willingness to sit down beside, a willingness to live in a glass bowl, Fortnight crusades are superficial at best even if preparation and honeing of content and format are diligent.

Years ago a Green Beret joined the local SDA church. He was a great guy. He helped us build a youth camp out a Clark Hill Lake--he was a dynamo. Shortly later he left the church. We asked him why. He said, that his wife threatened to leave him if he didn't join a church. So he picked out the crazest church he could fine just at the time we had a 3 week tent crusade 2 miles from our church.

He said, he did it to spite his wife. She left anyway, so he said there was no longer a reason to remain a SDA.

My point is pressure is not a staying motivation--we pressure 10 year olds, we pressure people who are afraid of the dark, we pressure any and all who are short on reason and long on emotion.

When I see a John Dewey Zwemer, a H.M.S. Rhichards, A Graham Maxwell, a Ted Heppenstall, I think to my self I want what they have!

I spend 11 of thirteen weeks in basic training. In the evenings I would complete a correspondance course in English Literature with Harry Tippett and then have a short scriptural reading and prayer. I got the hoots and the boots night after night.

Then the night before the obstacle course a number of GI's slowing wander over to my bunk and start a friendly conversation that soon led to inquiry about the obstacle course--I had been through infancy basic, and one round of medic basic when I got the mumps so now on the third time around I had yet another obstacle course. I was very reasurring telling them I was living proof it was safe. One fellow stayed behind and showed me pictures of his wife and baby and then asked if he chould march beside me. I said; "of cours, but why" He coughed, and whispered: "You are a good man, I know the Lord won't let you get hurt so I want to be a close as possible." I gave a little laugh, and said: " I don't think it works like that, but sure we'll go together."Maybe that is why I build my home within sight of the First Baptist Church, no come to think of it, they built their new church after we build our home. Tom

Joselito,
Thanks. I lost contact with Dennis after leaving HK. Perhaps he moved to the Phillipines.

After reading the comments by Carlos, David, and Joselito, I cannot resist the temptation of adding a few comments of my own. First, I have to admit that when I read the amazing result of the evangelistic efforts of Finley, Martin, Folkenberg, Tucker and others, I have to admit that I do admire them for what the Lord has and is accomplishing through them and how their efforts are being blessed by the Lord.

Nevertheless, I also resonate with some of the things that Frank and David have stated, who have forcefully argued that the Bible teaches that there is a diversity of spiritual gifts. From the time I was in Academy, my friends and relatives thought that I should consider the ministry as my lifetime career. I was not so sure, but I was ready to respond affirmatively if the Lord were to call me for said profession. It never happened.

When I graduated from the Colegio Adventista del Plata, now Universidad Adventista del Plata, in 1953 with a Junior Theology major, I was invited to join an evangelistic team in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I responded that I had never experienced God’s call for the ministry, and that I studied theology because I wanted a strong doctrinal background before entering the university. Three leading evangelists at the time in Argentina insisted that I should consider accepting the invitation. Since I still hesitated, one of them told me that the Lord was impressing him to tell me that God was in fact calling me for the ministry.

I felt that if I refused, I might be sinning against the Holy Spirit, so I accepted, and did my best to be successful as a ministerial intern. After three years of disastrous results, I realized that the Holy Spirit had not gifted me for said calling, and when I submitted my resignation, the man who had assured me that the Holy Spirit had prompted him to tell me that I was being called to the ministry, offered not a single objection.

My sister had never gone through a ministerial training, nevertheless, thanks to her efforts, there is a thriving new church a few blocks from where she settled with her husband and family in Buenos Aires. Evidently she had a gift of evangelism, in spite of a lack of training. I did have the benefit of a ministerial training, but that profession was not among my God-given gifts.

When I was 65 years old, for the first time in my life I felt that God was calling me to devote the remaining years of my life, part time, to the pro-life cause, and this is what I have been doing since then. In the event you are curious, I invite you to take a look at my website: http://www.sdaforum.com and my doctoral dissertation: http://www.sdaforum.com/page13.html.

May the Lord bless you according to your gifts!

Hi Carlos,

Do you know the cultural reason why Japan is having such a hard time with baptisms?

You agreed with me that most of the baptisms in HK are through our schools, then say they will soon disappear if not allowed to be active members (which is something my husband actively advocates in the local church as well as with conference officials). Joselito has pointed out that many people baptized in mass campaigns in the Philippines have disappeared as well. So what we see in both cases is the need for continuing discipleship on a local level. (a question I have asked of numerous people who have gone on these cross-cultural evangelistic trips is, what kind of network is set up for all these new members when you're gone? I usually get a blank stare.) You suggest that HK needs help--I agree--we really need to learn how to disciple and mentor new members. I see pockets of places where that happens, but it needs to be stronger. There are movements in that direction.

Carlos said: "If insiders do close to nothing, outsiders who are sensitive to their culture may do better! Since you are considered to be an insider ("a true NE Chinese person"), have you considered doing harvest evangelism? No??? Just because you are a teacher? Even though you are "just a teacher," "do the work of an evangelist"! Approach Terry and tell him you want to try. He will coach you!"

I smile as I read this. A true NE Chinese person is not the same as a true HK person. HK Chinese people are polite to but not overly thrilled about an American telling them what to do. (especially a person who is not an "expert" in his/her field) They have been a colony for 150 years under the British and now 10 years under the Chinese. They do not wish to become a cultural colony to the Americans (in religion, in education, in worship). My husband and I make suggestions within our sphere of influence, but ultimately, this is up to the local leaders. It is not my place to tell them how "it ought to be done." I can say, perhaps this would work, or perhaps that would work, or I can lead by example (for example, being Adventurer leader and leading the club in a different way than is locally done).

The other major barrier is language. Yes, English is one of the three official languages here, but it is at best a second if not third language. It would be silly for me to try to lead out an evangelistic campaign in English when there are truly capable people who can do it in Cantonese. Yes, I am working on my Cantonese, but at the rate I'm going, I will not be much past basic conversation in the next year. And attending a church that is bilingual has drilled into me how difficult translation is. I love my Chinese brothers and sisters and my Filipina sisters and I am happy that we can all worship together, but it is truly hard to keep focused during a 30-40 minute sermon that is translated. Why give a translated series when it can be done in one language?

And about becoming an evangelist--I have been called to be "just a teacher". I have not been called to heal, speak in tongues (though I have wished, in my struggle with Mandarin and Cantonese!), or to be a minister. God works through me in small groups. Yes, I 'could' probably manage to deal with doing an evangelistic campaign, but that would not be the most logical use of my talents. As a mere teacher, however, has used me to teach conversational English, American, British and Biblical Literature in a Chinese college 13 years ago; to teach a 70% non-SDA student population at an SDA school in the US; to teach children's SS classes at different levels; to start and lead a MOPS group at our previous church; to teach and tutor on different levels here in HK; homeschool; start and lead an Adventurers club; network with many other homeschoolers, expat and local. I am not bragging--I'm pointing out that I have been used where God has led me to be used. I have learned that it is best not to go against what God's leading is. If I believed that he was trying to lead me to be an evangelist, I would do it. (and no, I am not aware of any baptisms as a direct result of me only--but I have had students in all schools I've taught at who became baptized, and many others who have had a spark of interest in religion--one of my Filipino students brought a Bible with him to class this week--when his classmates asked him why, he said, I've never read it and I think I should--he's Catholic--but he wouldn't have started reading the Bible if it weren't for being at our school, and I am one of his several Christian teachers.)

I grew up with a dad who was a Literature Evangelist and Publishing Director. I remember hearing that he was doing "the work." When he first started, the people who got him started told him and my mom, in all seriousness, that my dad's job was the most important of the two of them (she is a nurse), so her job secondary since he was doing "God's work." (she told me this much, much later.) When dad later left "the work" (because of an unbelievable political situation), my grandfather told him that he'd never be saved because he wasn't working "for the church." Later, I saw the student LE's start working at the academy we were working at in Colorado. The same attitude prevailed--they were doing "God's work" so therefore it was okay (according to the leader) if they missed a class or two, or were not allowed to go on musical group trips, or whatever.

For some reason, I don't hear teachers going around telling everyone, oh, hey, give it a try--you just might do a great job as a teacher! Or doctors--come along with me and try to diagnose these upper respiratory infections. Why is it that evangelists (of whatever "brand") assume that everyone is cut out to do their work? Or that everyone "must" in order to really be a "good Christian"? I truly don't understand this. (and Carlos--I sense a great enthusiasm from you--I am not criticizing you, just asking the question)

What I do understand is God's command to go, baptize, and teach. I don't baptize. But I have gone and I do teach. Even though I am "just a teacher," that's exactly what God has called me to be, and that's exactly what I'm doing.

M

"Do you know the cultural reason why Japan is having such a hard time with baptisms?"

I conducted meetings in Tokyo, Nagano, Osaka, Fukuoka, and Ishikawa, and Chiba. There are several cultural reasons. I will illustrate one: When I arrived to one of these cities, the pastor told me that he had one person ready for baptism. After a few days I asked a person fpor how long he had been attending church. "Eight years." "When were you baptized?" "Not yet?" "Why?" "I guess I am not ready." "Have you accepted Jesus?" "He is My Savior!" "Second Coming?" "Coming soon!" Sabbath?" "Faithful observance!" "Health?" "Vegan!" "Sanctuary?" "1844" "Stewarship?" "Tithe!" Etc. "Would you want to be baptized this coming Sabbath?" The men smiled and said "Yes!" Then I approached others. They had been attending church for ten, eight, six, twelve years! I baptized eight on the first ceremony. The Conference president called the pastor and told him they were too many! "You are bringing shame to our pastoral body" (The average pastor in Japan baptizes three people a year). We still baptized eight more! The pastor was moved to another Conference.

The Japanese are very serious about "losing face." They avoid confrontation. If a pastor invites someone to be baptized and the person says "No," both lost face. One for saying "No" and the for being said "No." I did not have that cultural problem. There are other factors that I am not addressing here.

In Japan as well as in America there are myths about evangelism. One of them is that "public evangelism doesn't work anymore." It doesn't work if we don't try it, if we don't address felt needs, if we use the same methods of 50 years ago, if we don't think out of the box, if it is boring, if it is too pushy, if we don't do groundwork, if we are not willing to have a close personal relationship with the people, if we don't follow the right principles, if we believe that it works aparts from other forms of ministry and evangelism, if we are not willing to risk and pay the price. One of our ERC preachers went to a church that no one was aware that a series of meetings was starting that night. How can you expect results? An inexperienced non-Theology preacher went to a church in America that after a careful growndwork had 5 people ready for baptism as a result of the groundwork and ended baptizing 10 others who made a decision during the series.

Principles work in Japan as well as in Africa and in America. We sent a teenager to another culture, who preached in English but was translated into Swahili, her texts appeared on the screen in Swahili and had contextualized sermons, graphics, stories, and illustrations. Her series ended wioth more than 200 baptisms not because sha had a big name or was the most spectacular communicator. The African brethren had applied principles found in books written by an American lady more than 100 years ago...

In regards to all that has been said:

I am student currently attending SAU and am studying Theology along with Pre-Dent. And while (ironically enough) in evangelistic preaching class this past Tuesday; Dr. Martin brought some attention to this blog (briefly) in the beginning of class. Intrigued by the title of the article and hearing that there has been alot of debate around it, I went and found the site and surprisingly have read almost every entry.
I'm in my third year now, but this past year (from Aug. 06 - May 09) I served as a student missionary for 9 months in Peru. There I worked with a project call Toque de Amor (Touch of Love) which was a medical evangelism team that was based in the Selva (Amazon basin area). The group is working on building a hospital and trade school in the selva area and also participates in helping evangelism. Every 2 months or so they go out and do a 1 week (sometimes 2) medical clinic in a poor city district or river town. During the clinic they have bible workers meeting the patients and offering bible studies and in conjunction with the local district pastor who collectively do a campaign series lasting about 4-6 weeks.
With this group I did dental extractions and anesthesia during clinics, and then I would stay with the bible workers and help coordinate and see through the campaigns. I helped with 4 campaigns and worked with several pastors of different districts and tons of bible workers and lived with the local people in matching conditions to the area. Through it all I saw so much crap (for true lacking of a better word) that happens in church politics, evangelism, and "pious hardworking bible workers" that I am very critical to how evangelism is done, because I have seen pastors baptize people-put a bible in their hand- and leave them to fend for themselves while they report their numbers to the local conference president.
With that background (and I'm not claiming to be authority on this matter as it was a 9 month term and I’m only 21)and seeing what Dr. Martin has been doing, along with other faculty members, has been quite amazing. The training they put the students through in the ERC program is very thorough and intense. My older brother conducted a series this past summer and told me how much preparation goes into the work they do. Half their day is spent going over the sermon and program each and every day that there out there, and this is after all the preparation and training they receive throughout the year (roughly 5-6 months) specifically for the area they are going to. Along with these trips done by non-theology majors and the ones done for field school (for the theology majors) there is alot preparation at the site done in advance, and more work planned for the area afterwards- which to me the afterwork is the most important aspect to further nurture our new brothers and sisters in Christ.
I’m not stating any of this information in hopes of pleasing my professor (because I make my own grades in my classes) but to clear up some air on this matter, because despite possible flaws in this type of evangelism (or any for that matter), God is working all of it to His benefit. Yes I know that out of 50 baptisms maybe 20 will be sincere and stay around in the church, but that’s 20 people brought to Christ! And I know a God who loved us so much that He would have died for just one of us.
I do believe however that the traditional sermon outlines that are used are too topical and lack some depth at times, but I’m also a firm believer of the statement: "put up or shut up." There is alot of talk of rewriting the traditional evangelistic series or its ineffectiveness, and I'm interested on working on a series based on the solely the gospels for when I conduct a series, but unless you are actually doing something to help God's work-Don't attack and criticize an organization or group that is with all their best efforts trying to sincerely finish the work of the Gospel without fully knowing the workings of those workers.
All those who have been diligently conversing in this blog, please pray for the students who are making decisions to try and do their part in spreading the Gospel. If you have insights, ideas, or even concerns for the program - contact Dr. Martin. He is actually a nice guy whom I can see God's fire in him to drive all his efforts to finish the gospel, and your prayers and ideas can help the ERC alot.
I'm sorry that this has been long winded, but I do thank you for your time. This blog has it's been insightful in hearing so many different viewpoints from different backgrounds on evangelism and its effectiveness.

~Anthony

M,

The point to me is that each one of us has a gift. Whether a teacher of students, janitor, chemist, dentist OR an evangelist, etc. All are part of one body and serve the Lord by doing "their work" faithfully and sharing christ both in word (when moved of the Spirit to do so) and deed.

Human nature seems to like everyone doing it just like I do. Now that applies I think...to both sides of this issue.

Let God move people as He will.

I do think people may "at times" utilize outside motivation and learning but I believe the "ideal" is from within one's own country...but you know EXPERTS always come from
"somewhere else" where no one knows what they are really like!

I think is was Luther who once said "the stable boy who carries out his work faithfully unto the Lord is more holy than all the Carthusian monks."

-----------
Anthony if I ever go to Selva, I'll try to take out the root tips you may have left. :~)

"... unless you are actually doing something to help God's work-Don't attack and criticize an organization or group that is with all their best efforts trying to sincerely finish the work of the Gospel without fully knowing the workings of those workers."

Anthony,

This conversation got out of control precisely because of what you stated. It cuts both ways, btw.

You're 21 years old? I was 21, too, at the end of 1968, when I completed 5 1/2 years of mission college undergraduate and graduate education (MA) in history and religion. The local mission (conference) officers had been waiting for me to finish and they immediately asked me to join the mission evangelist. He's still around and presently lives in Loma Linda. Three evangelistic crusades later, in a period of less than 4 months, I was in charge of my own district of a dozen congregations/groups ranging from 15 members to close to 200 each; an average of 40 to 50 congregants, spread over half of a province in northern Philippines. That's enough background info.

Briefly, the issue here is not who is, isn't, a nice guy. Neither who is and who isn't doing God's work. No matter our situation in life as followers of Christ, our single calling is faithfulness to our Master. 1 Cor 4:2.

There's one interesting observation that you, having been a participant, revealed:

I helped with 4 campaigns and worked with several pastors of different districts and tons of bible workers and lived with the local people in matching conditions to the area. Through it all I saw so much crap (for true lacking of a better word) that happens in church politics, evangelism, and "pious hardworking bible workers" that I am very critical to how evangelism is done,

Would you mind telling us a little more about it, as objectively as you can without making any value/ethical judgment, so we may all learn from your experience in the field? Describe to us the situation as briefly and accurately as you can. Perhaps there are those here with enough experience who might be willing to offer a solution or two if they were placed in a similar setting. Thanks.

Pat,

As far as I know, Dennis J is still with the HKAH. Check the website of HKAH or the Chinese Union Mission so someone there can put you in touch with Dennis.

God Bless young people who are willing to confess the name of Jesus publically. As I recall, Jesus also used some notes from Isaiah when he preached his first sermon in that synagoge in Nazareth.

Years and years ago, it was required that ministrial students spend at least one year as a colporteur. I know that French majors spent their summers "selling" books in Quebec. I remember one ministrial student returning from selling Desire of Agesm Great Controvery, and Ministry of Healing in Northern Wisconsin telling us how he lived on $3.50 a week. He found a diner that sold barbecued ribs and kraut all you could eat for 50 cents.

Boy if you can sell Desire of Ages, Great Controvery, and Ministry of Mealing to Luthers in Northern Wisconsin during the Great Depression and earn a scholarship, you are ready for prime time. Tom

In my days there was a similar requirement to serve as a colporteur. I was not felt to do it. I procrastinated until the last possible Summer by working at the College (in days when they followed carefully the inspired adivise). I got my scholarship but the most important thing is that I developed new skills and learned to interact with people in such a way that I became much more effective in personal evangelism. I still consider myself not gifted for selling books as well as not gifted for Ingathering! Until my last year as a pastor in the U.S. (Texas, 1998), I launched Ingathering in my churches. With the brethren I hit the streets with tin cans and raised coins until we doubled our Ingathering goals (we would receive back 100% of the surplus!). My point is, even though I didn't feel comfortable, I did it, and God always prospered us! In fact I felt VERY uncomfortable in the first minutes but after three hours of confronting people on the streets, I was energized! Something similar happens with students, professors, and staff sent by the Evangelistic Resource Center of Southern Adventist University (ERC). I think of Joyce, and accountant and a mother of two. She took vacation time to go for the first time. She had never preached. We sent her abroad. When she volunteered the next year, SAU had already decided not to count that experience as vacation time. God blessed her as this past Summer she conducted a series in the homeland. If someone can talk, he can talk to others about Jesus! If someone can teach a Sabbath School lesson, she can be a good prospect for preaching! Is it correct that only people gifted as evangelists can do evangelism? I don't think so. They may become stressed (at first) but at the end they will return with joy, bringing in the sheaves.

I think the entire problem was due to the very poor YouTube presentation of student missionary work. I spent a large part of my career promoting student missionaries--At Loma Linda eight years and at the Medical College of Georgia for over 20 years. In Georgia we did most of our work in inner city Atlanta and in rural Georgia. Although we were in about five countries in Central America. It was an eye opener for most students and a life changing event for many.
Tom

Carlos,

There's no question in my mind that evangelism/new member recruitment (whatever we want to call it) distinguishes growing Christian congregations from the ones that have plateaued and are declining both in the USA as well as in other parts of the world.

See Is Evangelistic Activity Related to Church Growth? by Hadaway, C. Kirk

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/bookshelf/Church&Denomgrowth/ch&dngrw-ch8.pdf

I'm presently involved with a Presbyterian church the decline in membership of which I've observed consequent mainly to deaths of older members. Their new pastor is a native Virginian and Fuller graduate. His wife is Korean. I believe they're convinced this is what we've got to do, besides praying - to reach out to the community in order for them to grow!

Sounds good "Jose"

What is alarming to me is not only the indifference that many of our bloggers have shown to "active witnessing" (in contrast to the passive approach of smiling) but, even worst, the desdain and oppostion to evangelism shown in many instances. Let me adress your own words. Evangelism is not equivalent to "new member recruitment." This expression reflects the attitude of those who scorn/reject attempts to share Jesus with the lost. Evangelism is the sharing of the good news! It is an act of obedience using the best possible means to persuade people of the validity and power of the claims of Jesus Christ. If it results in conversion, baptism, and disciples, praise the Lord! If what someone does can be described in terms of "recruting members" then I would lament and reject it. Only those who have never led a soul to Jesus and do not know all the prayerful efforts it takes may equal evangelism to recruiting members.

Concerning the Presbyterian Church, there was a time when Presbyterians led the Christian world in evangelism. I wrote a paper on Chapman, a Presbyterian evangelist that went aseveral times arounjd the globe inviting people to accept Jesus as Savior. However, in the 1930s they were touched by liberal tendencies and active prolamation was virtually abandoned. Social action may give a new piece of cloth to a destitute man and for sure is a blessing to those who practice it, but it does not save a sinner from sin. Once we win his/her confidence, we need to follow-up with the proclamation of the gospel, not with recruitment.
Many in the SDA Church have already fallen in the trap of liberal views of salvation and evangelism that will not even mention the words sin ands repentance. The cynical article written by Alexander Carpenter and the support shown by so many in spectrumagazine are only a little and sad example of the condiution of some corners of our Church.

Carlos

As I stated above, the issue grew out of the negative response to the You/Tube presentation. It was high on emotion, low on content, and unitelligible for the most part. I am four square for evangelism--the telling of the Good News. I am not much for proselytizing. Christianity is indivisable. All have sinned and all come under the saving Grace of one Savior. If your students major on Daniel and Revelation then they are proselytizing. If they are pushing the 28 fundamental beliefs they are proselytizing. If they are preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified then they are evangelizing. It seems that you have an excellent grasp of the Gospel. What was lacking was any indication that your students had the same understanding and passion. Why not try a new You/Tube presentation that has an introduction, A statement of the Problem, Method and Materials, Findings, and Conclusions. Tom

I continue to find this thread of great interest.

Tom, I wholeheartedly agree with your last post. I couldn't have said it better.

What we are witnessing here is the difference between baptizing people into Christianity as described in Scripture, versus baptizing them in to the Adventist Church with all its supplemental requirements.

In an earlier post Pastor Martin spoke of his experience baptizing in Japan. I find that post quite telling of the concerns I see.

He listed 6 questions he asked the 8-year church attender who had not yet been baptized.

According to my reading of Scripture, only the first question, "Have you accepted Jesus?" is a requirement for baptism into the body of Christ, the Christian Church.

He then went on to ask this individual at least 5 other questions that he mentioned, regarding "Second coming", "Health"' "Sanctuary", "Stewardship", and "Sabbath", all things that he had to confirm belief in to make the point that this person was ready for baptism.

None of these 5 topics are biblical requirements for baptism, only belief in and acceptance of Christ as our personal saviour is a requirement.

I find it a great disservice to require all these additional Adventist distinctives being taught as being needed for baptism. While acceptance of these requirements might make a person Adventist, they certainly are not required of a Christian.

Randy

"However, in the 1930s they were touched by liberal tendencies and active prolamation [sic] was virtually abandoned."

It sounds from that description as though "liberalism" is a disease.

Liberalism is the idea that there is not a singular way of presenting the gospel. Liberalism recognizes that many adherents of Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism might be in some ways truer to the principles of the kingdom of heaven than some of us as Christians are. Liberalism admits that evangelism like this might be efficacious in some contexts while also admitting that in other contexts it falls flat.

Liberal means broad, generally accepting, adaptable, open, and generous. It means recognizing variety and diversity as good things. Liberalism tends to affirm plurality in belief and practice. Perhaps the time has come for the Seventh-day Adventist church to remove the term "liberal" from its list of bad words.

Carlos, you must realize that most of us, when it comes to SDA Evangelism, have only experienced one model to equate the term with. It is a model presented with some sort of media, film strips, slides or Power Point, a few gimmicks, like a free King James Version Bible with SDA study helps if you attend a fortnight of meetings, and a few bushel of proof texts, some taken in context and some out. Then at the end some real pressure to consummate the meetings with baptisms.

Show us that you are doing something different.

Carlos,

Once again, I must ask, "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Cor. 12:29-30 The implied answer is of course, no.

The issue is not whether or not we should share our faith with lost people. We should, it's not an option. The issue that I have, and that others on this thread seem to have, is the idea that one is only really doing it if they go out and preach a series on Daniel or Revelation, which I assume the ERC series focuses on.

To say that someone should tread outside their comfort level to do public preaching without regard to whether or not God has gifted or called them to do so, just does not square with what the NT says about spiritual gifts.
To hold up someone with a teaching gift as an example of someone who can do this kind of evangelism does not carry much weight either, because the teaching and preaching gifts are already closely related.

I'm aware that God can call a person to do what they thought they could not, and gift them ay any time to do it. I acknowledge that some of the students that participated were greatly blessed in ways they could not have forseen by attempting to do this for the first time. But I've also seen in my years in the church great damage done to individuals and to the church, because of people being pressed or guilted into service outside the areas in which God has gifted and called them.

Instead of questioning the dedication of "corners of the church" that do not think like you about these issues, why not encourage people to find and function within God's design and purpose for their lives. People trained according to the multiplicity of their gifts, will find multiple ways of sharing and building others up in the good news! Isn't that what the body is supposed to be about?

I just found this page and reading all the comments will take forever. I've read enough that I felt I should share my 2 cents.

Part of what really bothers me about today's evangelism is that much of it is aimed at the 3rd world as providing solutions for their problems(i.e. give them Jesus) but is really just using them to give the church an appearance of growth and create a temporary 'good feeling'. I believe typical evangelism is really empty into today's information age and globalization age. It doesn't involve commitment! It's self congratulatory. We love to take video! Then go back home and show some clips of baptisms and get pats on the back and then try to get more people to go back and do it again.

It's really nothing short of tourism evangelism. It's like medical tourism. We can't afford health care at home, so we go somewhere it's cheaper. And we all know that the foreigners are treated like ROYALTY on these trips.

Perhaps it's all symptoms of deeper problems. Inheriting traditions from previous generations and 'spiritualizing' the forces of power and money at play inside of the church.

I don't know how many of you know how big of a thing it is for a pastor in a 3rd world country to connect with a church group from the developed world. You're nobody unless you're connected with someone in the US. Then you have money, power, and influence.

I am currently working in the Philippines(I've been here for over 2 years). It's given me some real interesting views into what's really going on in the 3rd world in terms of evangelism.

It's not a pretty picture. Corruption is a way of life here, and I'm sure it's not much different in a lot of other 3rd world countries. In a country racked by poverty and corruption, people grow up in a very 'survival of the fittest' mentality. Churches and their often hierarchical structures provide access to power and money. The Adventist church is no exception.

One of my co-workers in the organization I work for was a pastoral intern before he came to work for us out of frustration with the corruption of the church organization. He was told to make 50 baptisms in 6 months if he wanted to ever have a chance of becoming a pastor. His district pastor had a quota of 100 baptisms a year, given to him by the conference. So he had ministerial interns under him and gave the same demands to them! And then he claimed their baptisms as his own!

Here in the Philippines, someone who has invested 4 years of their life to studying at one of our schools to become a pastor is suddenly faced with a decision when placed in the field. Obey the system, and become corrupt to survive. Quit and give up all those years of education with dreams to work for the church and do something else(hopefully ministry related). Or be a whistle blower, but who can you trust??

A recent(in the last year) evangelistic crusade conducted here by Koreans had over 100 baptisms. Know how many are still attending church today? None.

We need some way of measuring progress, growth, and pastor's effectiveness. But numbers have become too important. It confounds me how an organization with a mission to share God's love to the world, and some pretty cool insights into his Character that other denominations don't have could get it SO wrong.

One of my main concerns is that we are perpetuating these problems I listed above in developing countries by the way we conduct evangelism. Foreigners only see a small part of the reality of a situation when they come down for 3 weeks and then leave. Many times they go back thinking they've saved many souls for God's Kingdom when perhaps they've done more damage than they could have ever realized...

sorry I don't have anything positive to add to this conversation. Reading this post just drew it out of me. Something is very, very wrong in our church.

I'm up early, usually by 5 o'clock am, here in LA. Can't shake the habit of rising before the sun is up, just like in the Philippines where daylight throughout the year is between 5 am and 6 pm.

Tim kind of summed up what I felt way back in 1979 following a major metrowide crusade in Manila. The previous year, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Ass'n held several nights of well-attended meetings in a prominent park situated between the US Embassy and the historic Manila Hotel alongside a boulevard near the Manila Bay. (A suite in the old hotel was the home of Gen Douglas MacArthur when war in the Pacific broke out following Pearl Harbor.) The famous evangelist himself, Billy Graham, proclaimed the gospel.

Briefly, Billy Graham's successful visit must have inspired our church leaders in the division headquarters. The exact same slogans were in fact used. US-based supporters of The Quiet Hour (please, this is not a commentary on the motivation of funders for I believe in their sincerity) was tapped to help finance an Adventist event that had the potential to replicate and even better the one that was put up by the evangelical community. It was far from coincidental, I believe. Note, too, that the Adventist metrowide crusade in 1979 immediately preceeded a General Conference session when church leaders were to gather and present their reports to the world church.

Well, I must be on my way to pick up someone and take him to Sabbath School. To be continued...

What's sad is that this happens over and over again with new groups coming here.

I wouldn't disagree with people on this thread who say Evangelism has touched their lives, and I'm sure it has touched the lives of many here. Perhaps it's a question of utilitarianism though, since people that employ these methods do it because it's "more effective". In the long term though, is the greatest good being done for the greatest number of people? I think it's actually contributed to a shallowness here in the church.

Are foreigners really able to draw more of an audience than a capable Filipino speaker? What about the older, socially inept American guy I saw who came here to 'preach the gospel and pick up a woman' with a group 4 years ago?

As bloggers, most of us of the SDA church, we should really explore this deeper from different angles. What are we really building up? Is it the kingdom of God or something else?

I think what really angers some people when we ask questions like this is that we're challenging their pre-existing power structures. "What if the Americans stopped coming and we (locals) actually had to make do with what we have here?" I think that's a fair question. Are we doing something that is duplicatable or are we setting up an unhealthy dependence with the church in these countries with the church in the west? Perhaps we are actually STUNTING their growth rather than nurturing it.

So many juicy things to talk about! My personal problem is that I may not have much time to address all of them. I am just returning from my "SJMV" meeting, which in my church competes with Sabbath morning attendance. I have to get ready for my commitments to trainning and other events related to the kind of evangelism we are debating about in this blog. In the next three months (February-April) have to go to Maryland, Pennsylania, Michigan Guatemala, Ghana, Ethiopia, and Tanzania. Some corners of the world are expliding with this kind of evangelism (there are now more SDAs in India than in our country! There are five million SDAs in Africa! Six million SDAs in Latin Anmertica! I want to be part of a movement that wil "preach this gospel of the kingdom in every nation, kindred, tongue and people"!

I will be clear, Randy. According to my understanding, "evangelism is the presentation of biblical doctrines in the power of the Holy Spirit in such a way that people will be persuaded to accept Jesus as Savior, be baptized, and serve Him in the fellowship of the church." In the “Great Commission,” according to Matthew 28:20, Jesus asked His followers to make disciples by “teaching them to observe ALL THINGS.” In obedience to the Great Commission, in Acts 20:27, Paul states, “I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD.” Gospel is not only the doctrine of Jesus, but includes all the things that God considered necessary for humans to know and do. We need to present the good news about death, the church, healtful living, and so on. If no other denomination teaches the "full counsel of God," I am happy that I can do it as a SDA.

Jared's views reflect a pure view of liberal perspectives that I cannot accept. As long as there are those who maintain those views, I will maintain the "L" word in my dictionary and warn my listeners against its dangers. The issues of "salvation outside Christianity" (of course, some may be saved without knowing the Gospel but more can be saved if we go where non-Christians are) and the concept of a "Remnant Church" is for another blog...

Dick, read a previous post describing our approach this past Summer in 15 non-entered villages India (no Christian poresence), including pre-work by nationals, harvest by ERC teams, and one year of follow-up (including buying property, building a church, and pastoral ministry and more evangelism). So far, the local Conference report more than 1000 baptisms. Show me a better approach, and I will teach it to my student evangelists.

Frank, do you really believe that we preached a "Revelation Series" in India???? Many speak out of ignorance. Hpow can you lead a Hindu to monotehism and to an understanding of the Gospel using the same approaches that may work among Caucasians in the Bible Belt? Yes, we preached the Gospel, as found in the entire Bible in the form of what we describe as "28 fundamental doctrines" doctrines but using a contextualized approach that would not work in the U.S. All of those doctrines are good news and are centered in Jesus! I appreciate your advise to "encourage people to find and function within God's design and purpose for their lives. People trained according to the multiplicity of their gifts, will find multiple ways of sharing and building others up in the good news!" This is what I intend and I will continue in this line. I also believe that some people whose primary gifts are not in the pastotal/teaching/preaching realm can make a positive contribution to the mission of the Church as they go out of their comfort zone. We don't force anybody to do evangelism but we invite all to try. I am not primarily gifted as an administrator, but I can do it quite well (but makes my very stressed!). Some primarily gifted in the area of faith, health, or service "do the work of an evangelist" and discover that they have led people to Jesus! Isn't this wonderful?

My brother Tim's comments reflect a very limited understanding of what is going on in the Philippines, even if he is an insider. I worked there for six years as a teacher, but I volunteered to do evangelism in many places. I guess that the corporation where he works for is in Manila. I have conducted meetings in the islands of Negros, Palawan, Mindoro, Cebu, Romblon, Luzon (Manila, Vigan, Baguio, Naga, Quezon, Batangas, Legaspi City, Lipa, Tagaytay, Cavite), and Mindanao (Butuan, Iligan, Cagadian, Cagayan de Oro, Osamis, Davao). There are 2/3 of a million SDAs in this little country (if you remove the water between its 7000+ islands). You will find good pastors and the others. In a city of Luzon my students and I baptized 85 and one year later only a few remained (the pastor disappeared for two months immediately after we left!) but in another church in Mindanao, we baptized almost 300 but pastor Conejos had prepared the church for follow-up and one year later only five had left the congregations they had joined but more than 100 more had been added! We had used the same materials but the difference in long-term results was on the local leader's attitude. Tim asks "Are foreigners really able to draw more of an audience than a capable Filipino speaker?" "What if the Americans stopped coming and we (locals) actually had to make do with what we have here?" Have you ever joined Mountain View College's missionary students and visited their sites? They have planted and support scores of churches in remote regions without the support of a foreigner. The Church is growing (600,000+) because of the work of the Holy Spirit working through "locals," not not because of what foreigners do. If foreigners can support their work, praise the Lord!

I conclude this posting with some comments related to the Sabbath School lesson we reviewed today. I made reference to a posting in the blog that equalled "evangelism" with "recruiting members." Jesus asked, "Follow Me" to Philip and Matthew. This sounds closer to recruitment than to evangelism! Anyway, we invest about 25 hours in group Bible study plus many more hours in visitation. We aim not not only to lead people to Jesus but also to make a responsible decision for Him as they join the Body of Christ. Please, pray for the corageous ERC students, professors and staff that want to make a contribution to the "finishing of the Work."

One underlying idea for my positions is related to my underdstanding of the SDA Church. I have read some postings that referred to the Seventh-day Adventist Church in various negative terms. For me, an SDA is someone who is primarlily subject to Jesus Christ. Second he/she is faithful to the doctrines of the Scriptures, "the only rule of faith and practice." Third, an SDA recognizes the prophetic role of Ellen G. White. Fourth, we accept the authority of the Church Manual. Some liberal views may reject some of these elements. This may be a topic for another blog. I baptize people who have accepted Jesus and His Truth.

Carlos G. Martin, Ph.D.
Southern Adventist University

Tim-it's great to hear your voice here, especially as someone who is currently living and working in one of the places these sorts of series target. I really appreciated your insights. I know have a new word to add to my lexicon: evangelistic tourism. It captures well many of the issues I have with the typical evangelism we do and its lack of context and community-bring in the outsiders (usually from 1st world countries) and bring on the baptisms.

Carlos--I'm very glad you've joined this thread; you add insight into the motivations of the program. Thanks for sticking around. I've heard many of the phrases you use often, and I wonder if you'd define what they mean for you and ERC. When you talk about "the finishing of the work", what's your vision of what this looks like?

Daneen speaks about the "typical evangelism we do and its lack of context and community" in connection to "evangelistic tourism" done by "outsiders." I cannot ignore the fact that some may join evangelistic efforts abroad out of turistic motivations. However, is is not the case of most who go. A typical during one of these series includes private devotional
time, corporate worship, about one hour of sharing experiences and solving problems with the help of locals, and about two hours of reviewing together the presentation for that night. In the afternoon evangelists spend about two hours in private review, and then we take off by mid-afternoon for visitation. When we come back by 10:00 pm or later (my site in India this past Summer was mlre than one hour away) we usually spend more than one hour sharing what happened during the evening (this is the most energizing time of the day!) while eating light refreshments. We preach 15 nights in a row without a break, plus three Sabbath mornings. Some dare to call this "evangelistic tourism"! Let me tell you, IT IS exhausting!

Concerning the observation on this evangelism's "lack of context and community," let me share one case study. By December 2000, all 69 Seventh-day Adventists of Mongolia lived in the capital city and worshiped in one church and three small companies. Three evangelistic series had ended with none or reduced numbers of baptisms, due to the fact that the sermons had not been designed for the Mongolian worldview. I challenged the local young pastor, Bold Batsuk, to evangelize the second largest city of the country, Darhan, which did not have any Christian presence. Pastor Bold, 28 year-old, had never attended an Adventist school and was not ordained. He moved to Darhan ten months before my arrival, began English classes, and soon found people willing to accept Bible studies.

In preparation for my evangelistic series in Mongolia, I invested between 60 and 80 hours on each subject for research, compilation, and design of a culturally appropriate approach. Pastor Bold translated my approach into Mongolian and provided valuable insights into the Mongolian worldview. On my side, I did library and online research about Mongolia. A few years earlier, Mongolia had rid itself of an extreme form of Communism that had ruled the country for more than 70 years. I also studied their form of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion that does not include the idea of a god (Buddha taught the anatta principle–that nothing has a permanent or immutable essence).

Pastor Bold himself designed a form of advertisement that was appropriate for Mongolia. A team of about 15 young people participated in the effrot. On the first night of the series in Darhan, I presented the “five irrefutable proofs” of the existence of God to an audience of more than 500 people educated under strict atheistic Communism and who also had an atheistic Buddhist background. On the second night, I offered a sympathetic comparison between Buddha and Jesus, their sacred books (my chance to introduce the Bible), their beliefs, and their ministries. On the third night, I talked about nirvana (a state of non-existence, where Buddhists are relieved from otherwise unavoidable suffering). I described the beauties of the “Christian nirvana,” a place where there is no more suffering and no more death. On the fourth night, I talked about the law of karma (Buddhists believe that people suffer in this death the consequences of decisions made in previous lives). I explained to them that the God of the Bible offers forgiveness of “karma” by transferring the guilt to His own Son, so that those who believe in Him may enter into the wonderful “nirvana” described in the Bible!

“Little by little, as they were able to bear it,” as Ellen G. White says, and by adapting “our labors to the condition of the people–to meet men where they are” (Evangelism, pp. 484, 485)–through the power of the Holy Spirit I guided the audience to an understanding of the Adventist message. Two weeks later we baptized 44, with many more in the following weeks, so that a church was soon organized. The evangelistic strategy we implemented in Darhan worked well because we paid serious attention to the local worldview. Now there are two churches in that city. It would be good for you and witness first hand the sense of community in those Mongolian congregations!

Concerning "the finishing of the work," I see two options. One is that God has a set day for the Second Coming of Jesus. If this is true, I want to participate with Him in saving as many people as possible before is too late! A second option is that the Second Coming has a movable day (some think that it will take place when "God character is perfectly reflected in His people" while others say that it will take place "when this gospel of the kingdom is preached into the whole world." If this view is true, I want to do my part so this day will take place soon! It is not for me to speculate about when God will announce the "close of probation." For me, active witnessing is simply a matter of obedience. We are under orders!

Calos

I think we are discussing apples and oranges. The thread focused on the You/Tube presentation by students of their view and experiences with ERC. Most bloggers found that piece to do injustice to SDA evangelism. With your fleshing out the picture the You/Tube piece certainly was an injustice to ERC.

The second question dealt with the difference between proselytizing and evangelism. This question is much broader than ERC. I am not currently a member of the Augusta Seventh-day Adventist Church although I attend on occasion to accommadate my friends. Unsually, my friends introduce me to their current itinerant evangelist. We have private conversations in my home. I find each of these men and their wives charming dedicated Christians. I then attend several of their presentations. They are always set pieces with power point back up. Most pictures are dark and foreboding. Lost in the maze of animals, time charts, priestly garments, Scarlet women on the back of beasts there is a mention of the Gospel as someting in the distance heavens of the Three Angels. Oh yes the mark and the seal are featured big time. Usually four or five church school children are baptized along with one or the other of their parents and occasionally a few distant relatives.

My heart bleeds for the evangelist and for those mesmerized by the plethora "Of man in the hands of an angry God?" approach a la Edwards.

Why not develop a theme "There is a Balm in Gilead!" Just think what "Peace like a River" would do for confused troubled souls. Why not bring Pilgrims Progress up to date. Or maybe just a study of the Gospel of John. Every man woman and child in America is so "spin" weary that a clarian call to find rest for your soul is long over due.
Tom

Tom,
When we launched the ERC, we used whatever material was available. There has been a major development throughout the years. We started with American approaches but lately we are using contextualized approaches that have been carefully reviewd by locals.

Concerning your suggested themes, I promise you that I will share them with my team of evangelists. They sound very good! We can make use of them as long as at the end people will be confronted with the claims of the Gospel, with the issues of sin and salvation, obedience and holiness, Second Coming and Heaven (well, and Hell). My point is I understand evangelism as the presentation of Jesus and His Truth. Some have started with Archaeology, others with Family Life, others with Prophecy. Among others, you suggest the theme of Peace. I like it!

Tom,

Yesterday's sabbath school lesson was on discipleship recruitment. Comparing Jesus' method to cultic methods I learned a small but important difference that supports your plea.

Some Cults like to use apocalyptic approaches that utilize the uncertainty, fear and disillusionment with the present world and press the urgency to make a decision now(to join) for the end is coming and God favors this group above the others.(sound familiar?) Jesus was also apocalyptic but in a different sense. He didn't use apocalyptic pressure to recruit, but apocalyptic privilege. "Time is running out, the kingdom is coming" vs "The kingdom of God has come, join me."

(There were 7 other ways He was different in evangelism/recruitment.)

Thanks Carlos and Ar

I am encouraged.

I thank God for loving parents. I can pray Our Father
and feel perfectly safe.

When I hurt I ran home. How when I hurt I run to my prayer corner. I read from the Gospel of John; or a favorite Psalm,
The Letter to the Ephesians, or Job's conversations with God.

Tom

What are we really building up? Is it the kingdom of God or something else?

I think what really angers some people when we ask questions like this is that we're challenging their pre-existing power structures. "What if the Americans stopped coming and we (locals) actually had to make do with what we have here?" I think that's a fair question. Are we doing something that is duplicatable or are we setting up an unhealthy dependence with the church in these countries with the church in the west? Perhaps we are actually STUNTING their growth rather than nurturing it.

Posted by: Tim de la Torre (not verified) | 19 January 2008 at 9:59

Tim,

You asked a very relevant and penetrating question, whether or not we're truly engaged in building the kingdom of God; or, might it not be we're in point of fact only promoting the preservation of existing power structures?

On this blog are those who have experienced in their lifetime a close association with church officials that have shaped Adventism and who have undoubtedly asked your exact same question. We may have used different words to express our thoughts but the essential meaning is absolutely clear. I've thought about this for some time, from way back since I was probably about your age. I assume you're a very young person. At least you sound like one: energetic and idealistic. God bless!

Over the weekend, I met a gentleman who was visiting one of our Adventist churches in LA. It turned out that he spoke fluent English and Spanish. Having introduced myself, telling him my name, he started to speak to me in Spanish. I had to confess to him my inability to answer back quickly enough without first reformatting the English sentences in my mind, converting the same to Spanish. This was despite my having taken 4 years of required college Spanish (Castillan) in a country that was under Spain's colonial rule until a hundred years ago. No sooner were the words "Spain's colonial rule" out of my mouth that he corrected me, saying: "Your country was 'administered' not 'ruled' by Spain!" He explained: "It was administered with the permission and cooperation of the inhabitants."

He was a guest in our church, so what else could I say. I reckoned he must be a Spaniard.

PS: I don't think Carlos remembers but I met him briefly, shortly after he joined the seminary faculty at the Adventist International Institute for Advanced Studies. He told me he's from Paraguay. The name AIIAS may sound rather exotic in English for a graduate school, but for those whose frame of reference is Spanish it should feel like they're in familiar territory. More important and germane to this conversation, before Carlos the Field School of Evangelism for students of the Asia Adventist Theological Seminary was coordinated by Ralph Larson. I don't recall Dr Larson compiling and submitting baptismal stats in connection with his work around the division though his team of Distance Learning/Extension School graduate students must have added quite a few converts to the church's rolls.

Good comments. It's redoubtably true that my perspective of "what's really going on here in the Philippines" is limited. I've spent most of my time in the province of Occidental Mindoro , so I'm sure there are places where a lot is different.

I really sit on the fence with this issue. I don't want to shoot down people trying to do God's work. How is what I'm doing any less flawed by human efforts than an evangelistic crusade is? How much freedom should be left to people to use whatever means they believe God is asking them to use?

I have no doubt that God uses evangelists. I do however, question if the world needs more western evangelists, especially in places like the Philippines. Carlos mentioned the work in Mindanao with Mountain View College. I'm not sure if he's mentioning work associated with the SULADS or not, because they are funded and supported from outside, but for whatever programs are run from start to stop by locals, I applaud them. And it only encourages me to continue asking "so why send foreign evangelists if something effective and meaningful can be done by locals?

There are risks with everything. There is the risk of doing nothing. That is very bad indeed. There is the risk of doing more harm than good... that is also a very bad risk. Isn't there perhaps another way of encouraging youth to use their talents for God, in foreign and local missions? Obviously there is. I know SAU sends out a lot of student missionaries. That's great! We need more!

So I don't know. I'm not here to attack evangelism, even though I don't like so many things about it, but I'd like to see a discussion on this that isn't so polarized.

Tim,
Hope you have/take the opportunity to scuba dive off of Puerto Galera on Mindoro. It is inexpensive with beautiful water and coral.

The subject of evangelism, a la ERC/SAU, must have been beaten to death by now. Just for clarification of groups mentioned and a recommendation.

The SULADS of Mountain View College in southern Philippines is an outreach to a tribal minority funded by contributions from abroad. A primary promoter of the organization is Fred Webb, erstwhile expat missionary/administrator, first in MVC and later as a VP-Finance of AIIAS. His son is a physics professor at Union College and has visited MVC to improve its physics lab; he previously taught physics at PUC in Angwin.

Dr Martin's reference to student-led church planting evangelism activities in the area around MVC is in regard to what is known as the Student Ministerial Seminar composed of theology and non-theology students. It's a phenomenal student-led program, funded by congregations they have established. A similar, much older organization has been operational for a longer period in "the other PUC" - the Adventist university of north Philippines - known as the Student Ministerial Association. I served as a student president during my junior year there and was a faculty adviser during part of my term of 7 years with the undergraduate religion dept. In effect, students of the two liberal arts colleges function as volunteer pastoral associates and student evangelists off campus on weekends.

Hopefully, I've grown spiritually and matured socially since my student days and after 10 years of fulltime denominational employment. Needless to say, Jesus is the only Way, Truth, and Life. Nevertheless, God has a thousand ways, Ellen White wrote, to provide for the diverse needs of all His children. Evidently, traditional Adventist evangelism is one of the thousand possibilities God has made available for our use, as we cooperate with Him in discipling the nations. I hope our community remains open to other service possibilities - to the "999" other provisions of God.

Forgive me, Carlos, for using this thread to recommend at least one missions resource site that has blessed me.

http://www.missiology.org

Besides learning from Ellen White and the many fine spokespersons within the Adventist community (Gottfried Oosterwal was a mission college mentor I've mentioned often in this blog), association with Christian missionaries of other traditions has been an eyeopener for me. I remain an Adventist for it's this faith community that first gave me an opportunity to train and serve in a pastoral-evangelistic capacity. Briefly, I've moved on to do other things besides, still as a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ.

PS: Pat, I've been to Oriental and Occidental Mindoro many, many times on medical/dental mission and public evangelism as well. The island is part of my local home mission/conference. During the 1986 People's Power revolution that toppled the Marcos regime, I was in one of those trips to San Jose, Occ Mindoro, with a volunteer staff of our Cagayan Valley Sanitarium and Hospital.

Joselito,
It is a beautiful island setting that I enjoyed ~5-7 times as a getaway from the activity "madness" of Hong Kong.

All that is Best!

All that wind for nothing...if its that complicated you have all lost the plot long ago

Phil:

The original question was can Christianity be "sold" like tupperware?

The obvious answer from the beginning was an emphatic no!

The rejoiner was we are doing the best we can.

From then on it became a chat room.

If we are going to have meaningful conversations we need to find a common ground--life expeiences offer one. Exigesis is another. In the post-Glacier View world Exigesis is the third rail. Never-the-less, the Spectrum "wind" is of great use in finding a common idiom. I've been to a number of far Eastern locations mentioned but under far different circumstances. It is great to know that the islands my friends died for are now places of quiet rest for weary soul seekers. Tom

What saddens me is that, after numerous times of boiling down real and lasting evangelism to begin with meeting people's needs, I find that when reality hits usually everyone's tightly inflexible schedules do not allow for spontaneous aid. Very seldom does helping people fit into our limited available time slots.

I understand your concern, but i just wanted to point out that although you must study the word and get deep. God does not require you to be that deep in order to preach for him. There is no requirement or else none of us could preach because no matter how much we try we are not completely like him. There is a quote I like: "God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called." Yes, numbers don't matter but at the same time they are an encouragement. We may not always get that and while that shouldn't be our motivation it can be an encouragement. Even the bible records numbers. In Acts. In ONE day, 3000 people were baptized. I believe it's time to stop criticizing, condemning, and being disappointed in others when they are soul-winning. Go OUT IN TO THE WORLD.GO YE!!! AND TAKE THE GOSPEL. That's our commission and that is why we are still living - for Christ and Him crucified. Spread that gospel and change the world.
About calling studies, "worldly things" -- i don't think that's what the student meant. I myself am a student at Southern and I find that the more we see the need the more we realize why we are studying. We are studying because we are finding a career that best suits us, but also is the best way GOD can use us in the workplace to reach other. When you take such mission trips, you realize this more clearly. Sometimes in college you lose your way. You forget your ultimate purpose. And doing little things like this shows you how important and serious our work is. That is all.
God asks us to fulfill the gospel commission. So please I beg you - do not condemn your young people. They are receiving blessings from God. They are searching for Him and finding and sharing. So encourage, support, and always ask yourself WHAT WOULD JESUS DO. we got a job to do. really. no joke.

I also am not a believer in evangelism. I think we should keep it to ourselves.

Evangelism is done in obedience to the Great Commission, a command from Jesus to his disciples to proselytize, as recorded in the New Testament.

I have visited the Spectrum site a number of times now, and my jaw literally hangs open in disbelief at how easy the members of this forum seem to find it to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at the earnest efforts of people who actually try. This website is positively toxic with whining and fault finding. Wow.

I have never seen such detestation of the church gathered in one place. Any time evangelism comes up, people here froth at the mouth. It's like people are watching for something to pounce on.

So there's something wrong with someone who doesn't have the courage to preach his or her own sermon outlines getting started with someone else's material? You'd condemn the writers of the New Testament on these grounds; they apparently borrowed material from each other, too. And preachers - for the last couple of millennia - have quoted the Bible, essentially deriving outlines from Peter, Paul, John, James, etc.

I would suggest that people here need to really examine their personal issues to find what's making them so unbelievably bitter.

"All the religion a few poor souls have, is to watch the garments and acts of others, and find fault with them. Unless they reform, there will be no place in heaven for them, for with this spirit they would find fault with Jesus and angels. {2SG 287}"

Sounds like a personal problem to me, as well as a personal or collective attack. Join in the discussion and show us your "better" way.

Hi Rod,

It certainly might come across as stone throwing from afar. While some of the comments obviously have given the impression that some people dislike the church, I think the opposite may be equally true. That is to say, because some of the individuals who have commented here care as much as they do about the future of Adventism, they offer their honest critique of a methodology that to them seems rather poor.

The same thing holds true for the thread about the $1 million evangelistic campaign in Los Angeles. People offer critiques because they want to see Adventism bettered, not because they dislike the church!

Sometimes a man's best friends are his strongest critics, not his most ardent supporters.

As for sitting on the sidelines, that is probably not the case with the majority of those in this online community. Here are a couple of examples: Ryan Bell, pastor of the Hollywood SDA church has a unique type of evangelistic campaign that includes advocating for affordable housing in his community in Los Angeles. He has made a positive long-term impact in his community and made many bridges with non-churchgoers that way.

Alexander Carpenter just attended a conference in Colorado focusing on enhancing and expanding the ways Adventists use technology to further the work of education and witnessing for justice and mercy in a technological era.

This community is full of active, engaged Adventists who are not conventional at times, but certainly love their church, and offer criticism in order to better the church they love!

Rod,

As someone who was a literature evangelist for six summers, and has participated in the writing of sermons and preaching in several evangelistic series both in the U.S. and abroad, I root my longing for creative new approaches in actual experience.

Having just spent four days with GC leaders and lay techonologists, I can tell you that the "complain about Spectrum being open to new ideas" meme is over. While even I grate at some of the comments, there is a growing movement to re-contextualize our outreach in the church. The recent announcement of the Net Prizes shows that the laity and church administrators are serious about mixing brains and money where the outreach opportunities are.

SMU's student evangelism is straignt out of "Little Debbie's" ad campaign and about as nutritios. More people die each day than hear the gospel. Shame on all of us. My grandmother was dying, a Seventh-day Adventist from about 1915 until her death in 1923. Her two youngest children, including my dad, joined the SDA church with her. As she lay dying, her eight children surrounded her bed. One asked, "Mother is there anything we could do for you?" She replied:. "Oh, I would love the taste of some crisp fried bacon. The older sisters looked at each other and then to dad and their younger sister also a SDA nurse. All eight agreed that mother should taste some crip fried bacon. The Eldest sister immediately went to the kitchen and prepared some crip bacon for her dying mother. She brought the bacon to her mother. Her mother, my grandmother said: "Oh thanks you so much, I really appreciate it, but I can't meet my Lord with bacon on my breath." Within minutes, she passed away quietly. Dad said, afterwards: Her Lord and mine would have embraced her breath and all. But she was a woman of much grace and courage, I fully respect her stand." Dad's only regret was that Grandmother didn't live a few months longer to see Jack, Dad and mother's first born. Betty and I have lived to see, hold, and kiss our newest great grand son Jackson Thomas Zwemer. The Lord is good. Now why in the world can't we tell that to the world, instead of some drivel.

The idea of "having the 'Truth' is the greatest curse very perpeturated upon any subset of humans. The greatest exhibit of that curse in today's world is dispensationalism and orthodox Seventh-day Adventism.

Just as I am, without one plea--is that so difficult? Tom

Eighty-seven preachers led 4,561 people to baptism this summer 2008. This is a baptismal report for the team sent this summer to the homeland and the three teams sent abroad by the Evangelistic Resource Center (ERC) at Southern Adventist University. Keep in mind that they were unexperienced preachers!

In 2001 Southern Adventist University started requiring all Theology majors to conduct a full evangelistic campaign before graduation. In 2005 we experimented with non-Religion majors. Today, most of our preachers are not Religion majors. We believe that we are preparing more than just pastors who believe in evangelism and know how to do it effectively–we are preparing committed Christians who will serve the Lord in any area of work and ministry. Since 2001 we have sent 392 preachers and led 11,844 people to baptism. Praise the Lord!

Behind these numbers there are wonderful stories! We are willing to share our testimonies and experiences with you in the form of an article, a seminar on evangelism, or a devotional/motivational presentation in your classes, church, or committee meetings. If you want to have a short DVD with some stories and testimonies, we will gladly send one to you for free.

Request your DVD to martin@southern.edu

I suppose if anything, the comment from Dr. Martin reiterates what we bear in mind while discussing how to witness publicly in the world. There is no question that traditional public evangelistic meetings result in many baptisms and quantitative growth in the church. This report comes as no surprise.

This article by Alexander Carpenter hits at something more fundamentally challenging than how to bring in new converts. It asks whether numerical growth is really the bottom line, whether we are first a business and second a church.

Ryan Bell challenges the idea that upping our head count is the primary task of evangelism. His approach marks a fundamental shift toward a holistic, missional witness that provides a compelling alternative to the "franchise and baptize" (as Dave Larson put it) method of doing evangelism.

I would invite those engaged in public evangelism to consider the new paradigm that Ryan offers and imagine how it might revolutionize our witness.