Jared,

So as to avoid the "39 Hedges" of the Pharisees, I suggest Paul's wisdom. "Let everone be convinced in His own mind."

If a Sabbatarian feels he is not properly keeping the Sabbath by any of his activities, then he should obey his conscience.

However, some SDAs have not relied on EGW exclusively for their proper Sabbath observance, but also use the Sabbath laws that are included in the same Old Testament where the Ten Commandments are given: "Tomorrow is a day of complete rest, a sabbath sacred to Yahweh. Bake what you want to bake, boil what you want to boil; put aside all that is left for tomorrow" (Ex. 16:24), and "You must not light a fire on the Sabbath day in any of your homes" (Ex. 35:3).
(Is warming in the microwave not condemned?) The prohibition of lighting fires on the Sabbath is carefully observed by Orthodox Jews who do not drive a car on Sabbath nor use a match to light a heater.

This is just another laws that reinforce that the "Sabbath was made for man" and not woman, as it has traditionally been the woman who had to work much harder the day before the Sabbath to cook when there were large families, and so with the food preparation beforehand, there was still much left to be done in getting it on the table (all cold food?) and cleaning up afterward.

Do women have less guilty conscience about eating out on Sabbath? This one certainly believes it is an added enhancement.

The Sabbath commandment admonishing the Jews to allow their servants time off on that day, was because they OWNED them, they employed them on a lifetime basis. That is NOT the same at all for restaurant employees.

Eating out with other Adventists allows fellowship (why Sabbath potlucks if not for that reason-someone's gotta prepare) and relief from the everyday work world.

It's always somewhat amusing the extent that someone will go toward questiong certain behaviors on Sabbath and never, at the same time, questioning all the other Sabbath rules, punishments, and addendum that accompanied that law initially. Separating the penalties and how the Sabbath should be observed, as originally ruled, yet intending to preserve the command given to the Jews (never to Christians, BTW), is quite a paradox, to say the least.

Interesting ideas Jared. I appreciate that you are pondering Sabbath rest as a larger issue--rest and spiritual rejuvenation for all--rather than a letter of the law polemic! I attended my parents' church recently, and while it's also in SoCal, it's not in the greater Loma Linda area and does not seem to attract the "spirit of the law" types. The pastor railed on (and on) about how people were going out to eat on Sabbath and not thinking twice about breaking God's law (this was technically a sermon on Revelations, so the mark of the beast came up). He said he used to go around to restaurants randomly on Sabbath and just sing to the people there, hoping to entreat them to give up their law-breaking ways....About halfway through the sermon, my mom, sensing my growing angst, whispered to me, "Please don't tell him about lunch plans on the way out--he means well, but he'd probably show up singing." We had plans to go to our favorite Thai restaurant where we had developed a good relationship with the family who owned the place--it's a small place that struggles for survival and did indeed deeply appreciate our spending money there that Sabbath. The family is Buddhist, and although they used to close on Sundays, they were losing too much business, so now they take Tuesdays off.

Your point is well taken that in our Sabbath keeping, we often just think of our own well-being and no that of others. Do you think Adventists, at least in "spirit of the law" places, would encourage Sabbath-keeping no matter the day? What if these folks keep Sunday as their Sabbath? Or maybe Friday, as is customary for Muslims? Is it possible to advocate Sabbath principles without being tied to the day?

My biggest beef (mock beef, of course) is that you SoCal Adventists don't seem to know good dining! I'm quite familiar with Souplantation's buffet (an invitation to overeat for me), but do check out some non-chain options! I've become quite spoiled living off of Clement street in San Francisco with all sorts of mom and pop dining options from every ethnicity imaginable. Somehow dining at these sorts of places, where the owner knows my dog's name and we swap stories about what our "kids" have been up to this week, puts a much more personal light on this topic. I know that I actually am contributing directly to a small business owner, someone who is vital to our community. However, my business is keeping them working...

I hope that nobody is hearing implicit in this post accusations of breaking Sabbath - at least not in the traditional Adventist sense. Don't forget that I was the one at the restaurant! So this shouldn't be taken as a diatribe in favor of or against any specific behaviors as such.

What I would suggest is that there is a greater issue at stake here than how we do or don't observe Sabbath for ourselves - the issue of how we mete out justice and Sabbath blessing to all those concerned. In that regard, we ourselves are only very small players on a very large stage.

Elaine, I might suggest that the clarification about ownership issues and framing the discussion in that context omits an important part of the text which applies Sabbath rest to all strangers/foreigners/visitors/aliens within the confines of one's gates (i.e. sphere of influence, as I read it).

We could ask questions about what specifically that would have meant in the ancient world, but ultimately, we're still confronted by its ramifications for our world where we no longer own other people, technically, and yet we still do in a manner of speaking.

Insightful thoughts to ponder!

While an onslaught of Adventists to a restaurant certainly is not providing them rest, I believe that true Sabbath rest comes not from just having nothing to do, but from a heart that has personally taken some time out of the pressures of life and trusted life's desperate needs in God's hands. I believe that we can never help people enjoy the Sabbath blessings by simply making it possible for them. They have to have a desire for it. So in keeping with your comment about not keeping Sabbath to ourselves and making it available to others, I wonder what real ways we could do that (I love the idea that we would do well to share it rather than hoard it!)?

Sometimes I wonder if we've killed a lot of the power of the Sabbath, especially in this 24/7 day and age, by focusing on the technical rightness of 7th-day-ness, rather than focusing on the blessings of Sabbath rest (rest resulting from taking time to rest {in whatever way is restful for the individual}even while a pile of necessity's are knocking at our hearts doors and trusting all the to do's to God). What if we spent more effort modeling Sabbath rest than talking about it's rightness (and even modeling it's "rightness")? What if others saw in us people that were able to steel away from life's demands (in all different times and ways) for time to rest our lives in God and truly "live" life for a period of time? What if we were known not for trying to make everyone conform to taking a particular day off employment (ah, only certain kinds of employment-pastors, medical personell, etc-- they can work on Sabbath), but emphasizing the principle of Sabbath rest and helping interested folks find ways applicable to the realities/complexities of their lives to find soul restoration.

I think Adventists have a great message desperately needed in today's world - which could lead to deeper relationships with God - but we've often focused on the wrong part of the message thus making it a turn off and quibbling over theological/behavioral hairs- not the delight that it truly can be.

For me, the primary reason for not doing business on Sabbath is to remove divisions between the haves and have nots, the masters and servants, the rich and poor. On Sabbath we all appear before God as equals. This is also the eschatological message of Sabbath (made explicit in the Sabbatical year system); it's the goal of history, if you will. That's why I don't eat out on Sabbath, except in emergencies.

"we're still confronted by its ramifications for our world where we no longer own other people, technically, and yet we still do in a manner of speaking."

That is truly a slippery slope! We want the electricity, traffic lights, police and fire protection available 24/7, so do we "technically own" these people?

It is likely impossible to observe the Jewish Sabbath law without adding at least some of the restrictions that accompanied it. How does an honest sabbatarian attempt to straddle the rules of a 3,000 year old culture to the 21st century?
Should one read the newspaper? Watch TV, or how about the internet or computer? Or using the electrical appliances in the home: air conditioning, microwave, etc.?

It was much simpler for the Hebrews (and they did have manna) when they didn't even have to cook--manna was edible an extra day so no fires were necessary. Oh, they had their animals to feed and water, but none of the necessities of living for which we are totally dependent today.

For many church employees it is by far the busiest day of the week. For SS teachers of young children, it is hard work controlling a room of restless children, followed by additional church activities--not to mention that for pastors it IS the hardest working day of the week. Do we honestly believe that only those who are in ministry and healthcare are doing the Lord's work on Sabbath? Who prepared food for Jesus and his disciples, if not women?
We really don't know exactly how they accomodated to Sabbath in those days.

Eating out is total rest and relaxation for so many that it makes Sabbath a joy and a day to look forward to. We want even mention parents, sorely in need of rest after a busy week, and restless children who almost dread the Sabbath because "there's nothing to do."

I know a family with a young child whose parents, both of them, are active each week in SS kindergarten class. Afternoons may be spent water or snow skiing, even a children's movie. This way, their child is always eager for Sabbath because it is a very special day of fun.
Should adults not have their "special day of fun" in the manner which they can enjoy?

Don't worry Jared--I never thought you were intending this as an examination of "rightness" of behaviors from a legalistic stance. I hope my comment didn't throw anyone off--that was just my recent experience.

Hanan is absolutely right in wondering "if we've killed a lot of the power of the Sabbath, especially in this 24/7 day and age, by focusing on the technical rightness of 7th-day-ness."

The Sabbath could be such a blessing to our world, but we get tempted to legalism and all sorts of eschatological implications in our approach, thereby stunting its potential impact.

I remember on a post way back on the old blog where Alex said they'd had a prominent environmentalist talk in Berkeley. Someone asked him what was the most important thing the average person could do to help the environment, and he answered, with no religious implications, "Keep a Sabbath." That's a side of Sabbath (and I note that it's "a" not "the" Sabbath) that I'm quite sure the modern world would identify with.

To be honest, I cannot agree with many of the *opinions* here. Many of these views are not founded upon the simple Scriptures.

Yes, Adventists have this history of growing into legalisms on the Sabbath by being strict in observance. But remember that observing the Sabbath faithfully is not the sin. The sin comes when we observe and then become inclined to feel that by observing, we now are deserving of God's favor.

For example, a man may have addiction problems with the TV. So in his best interest to remain faithful to God, he tosses out the TV which gives him access to 3ABN, Hope Channel, etc. If the man decides to place a restriction on TV for himself and his kids (until they are older), the man is not sinning. He is not being legalistic. He is being wise according to what God has taught him personally.

Yes, Adventists seem to have a large rule book. But are the rules inherently bad? Or do the rules come from Bible principles?

For example, a young mother was taught by her older mother to never let her kids stay out in the cold. The young mother never knew why, but she believed that kids always ought to stay warm for their own benefit of good physical health. One day, the kids wanted to stay in the snow longer than usual. Does the young mother have to explain everything inside-out to the kids and let them choose whether or not to come inside? Obviously not. In the same way, we have simple instructions from God that carry deep principles. We should simply keep them if the principle applies. Let's not find ways around simple instructions. Let's not find excuses for playing in the snow. The Sabbath is first about Jesus Christ, then others, then us.

Yes, Adventists have generally grown into a tendency on condemning Sabbath-breakers. But is that the issue here? If we are talking about condemning Sabbath-breakers, then we look to Jesus who said, "He who has no sin may cast the first stone." Simple. But if we are talking about how Jesus would want us to keep Sabbath, then it's a whole different issue.

Keeping the Sabbath correctly is not a fine linear line. Just as our individual experiences are all different and unique from one another, we all live and keep Sabbath a little differently. For some, Sabbath afternoons can be a nature walk. For those who are disabled, it can mean watching wonderful programs on 3ABN. For others, it may be serving the needs of people all day at church.

The key element is that Jesus Christ is centered in the Sabbath. What would He do? If Jesus didn't have to, would He go out to eat? Or would He rather enjoy a simple morsel of bread because it is available to Him? Would Jesus practice a lifestyle where He often prepared before the Sabbath or improvise during the Sabbath?

I would like to add one thing. Bear in mind that Jesus rarely went to fill his stomach out in public when you read the Bible. Jesus, more often than not, ate in the home, ate with people that He knew personally. In public, Jesus served without a single sense of a Jewish Daily Special because He was more interested in feeding others. Once everyone else had their fill, then Jesus could eat without His conscience bothering Him.

Final question... Are we seeking the Spirit or the stomach during the Sabbath? All I ask is that we don't blame God on judgment day. I am included as a chief of sinners.

"The key element is that Jesus Christ is centered in the Sabbath."

An interesting statement. One would be led to believe from the Old Testament that God was the author and creator of Sabbath; especially when most sabbatarians look to the Fourth Commandment given by God to the Israelites approximately 1200 years before Jesus, and it was to celebrate:
the creation, or their delivery from Egypt.

We clutter and confuse Scripture when we begin to rewrite our human ideas about what is not said. Would ANY good Jew during Jesus lifetime NOT observe Sabbath? It's not even a question

Taking the view that Jesus is the Creator, then it seems perfectly reasonable to place Jesus at the center of the Sabbath.

There are many that take John's words: "In the beginning was the Word..." as an indicator that, indeed, Jesus was present - instrumental, even - in the Creation.
jen*

For those who like to take the bible literally, is says nothing about eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath.

The Sabbath day in the 21st century is an interesting dilemma. Sunset to sunset??? So peple observe the sabath at different times accross the world. What about the far north when the sabbath day would last for months.

We need the world to be active on the Sabbath as any other day. We need people to work and spend money. Everything is linked. Electricity, water, Gas. Hospitals, food, restaurants, cars. You can't stop and shut down society for one day.

Extreme cases exist to show this as being completely flawed. In Saudi Arabia, during the "call to prayer" every muslim is supposed to stop what they are doing - the surgeon, ambulance driver, drug store, petrol stations. If you are in ICU, good luck. The Saudi Royal family employes westerners for their private doctors to get round this.

That Jesus was the Creator is nothing but an unwarranted assumption not validated by the text itself. In John's Gospel, he was referring to God's mind. "Logos" is the word from which we get "Word" and it began with the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, ca. 500 B.C. The Jewish philosopher, Philo, also felt that Logos was the mind of God.

Christians see Jesus as the agent of a NEW Creation: the life of the world and the light of the world.

Being a somewhat new adventist it is amazing to me how much adventist twist Scripture to justify what they want to do. I have read all the comments on this topic and it shocks me to see that no one has looked to God's Word or quoted His Word to justify eating out on the Lord's Day. In Neh.13:15-17 we find what God thinks about buying and selling on His day. In Isa.58:13-14 the prophet talks about not doing as YOU please on God's Holy Day. Ex.20:8-11 talks about everyone having rest on this day. Like my brother said early,if Jesus were here,would he eat out on Sabbath? That is something we all know the answer to . It is no. The Sabbath was made for rest, communion with Him and doing good. On the Sabbath Jesus was about His Father's business. That means He was doing ministry. How many of us are doing ministry on this day. We are more worried about what and where we are going to eat then telling someone about the love of Jesus. As adventists we really need to get our priorities straight and stop trying to make excuses for doing wrong. James 4:17 says, "For him that knoweth the good he ought to do but doeth it not, to him it is sin. All you all that are eating out on Sabbath know that that is not what Jesus would approve of. He gives us six days to prepare for the Sabbath. One out of those six days should be used to prepare for the Sabbath. Preferably Friday ,that's why it's called the Preparation Day. Wake up church, wake up. More and more we are looking like Rev. 3:14-17.

"If Jesus were here, would he eat out on Sabbath?"

Where do you suggest he might eat? "The Son of Man hath nowhere to lay his head" would indicate he did not have a home; nor did he have a wife, as all good Jewish men did to prepare his food.

Of course, he would eat out, just as he must have done his entire ministry. Where do you suggest he ate his meals? A few a Mary & Martha's house, and there weren't too many restaurants then, so he must have eaten at other people's homes the three years he was on earth.

It's amazing that people instantly are very secure in knowing exactly WWJD. Human omniscience?

"That Jesus was the Creator is nothing but an unwarranted assumption not validated by the text itself."

Hardly. The word that was in the beginning, through which God created the world, that word was God -- and that word became flesh, and dwelt among us. John's not giving us Greek philosophy, he's preaching Jesus.

Neither time nor space is holy see John 4!
Only the triune God is Holy 24/7!

God is the object and the subject of worship.
Rest (The Sabbath was made for man).

This thread would make it appear that "eating out" is the greatest "sin" of Adventism. The greatest "sin" of Adventism is Adventism--assuming that they alone "have the Truth"! What nonsense.

I have a friend who shall remain nameless who believes and proclaims that as a forth generation Seventh-day Adventist they have a lock on salvation.

Therefore, eating out is no problem.

The issue is not when, where, or what you eat but how much--obesity is the sin of America while others starve. Tom

Growing up in the 40's and 50's Sabbath lunch was cold salad food, year-round. Oh, how I wanted a hot meal when I came home from church in winter!

Later, when my parents were getting up in years and mother was ill, they began eating out for Sabbath lunch. How much they enjoyed the little, cozy restaurant, with the friendly owners. Dinners were served on English china, on white linen tablecloths, with fresh flowers.

If we literally took what the Old Testament says about the sabbath, we would turn off all electricity, water etc and walk to church, which would also be without electricity and water.

Hi Leroy

Congratulations on becoming one of the remnant.

Glad you know what Jesus would or would not do especially as regards to eating out on the Sabbath. Did they milk cows on the Sabbath? Just an idle thought.

Anyway, doing the Fathers business is actually a converse argument. You see, this is probably best served through behaviour as a witness during the week. So on the sabbath we should put aside this and concentrate on something else??

Thinking about eating instead of preaching. Well if you are hungry, you should eat so you can concentrate on other higher tasks.

I think you should take a closer look at what people are saying, they don't know that eating out is wrong, therefore your conclusion based on James 4:17 is wrong.

Leroy, are you a mind reader? Do you really know what other people really think?

I didn't know Friday was preparation day. I do know that the Greek word for Friday means preparation day, but that does not make it so. How many Greek prepare for the Sabbath. No they are from a purer version of religion (Orthodox). One which has its routes much closer to the time of the bible than the remnant.

Being an adventist yourself, presumably by your opening comment, you would concede that you twist scripture to justify your own conclusions. If you do admit this, then I would tend to agree with you.

Elaine,

This is quite irrelevant:

"The Sabbath commandment admonishing the Jews to allow their servants time off on that day, was because they OWNED them, they employed them on a lifetime basis. That is NOT the same at all for restaurant employees."

As a further reading of the commandment would tell you:

"...nor thy stranger that is within thy gates"

Is sabbathkeeping a matter of a list of things that are allowed or forbidden? (A list something like the document debated during the General Conference session i Indianapolis 1990 or was it 1992?)

Didn't the diciples break the law by "harvesting" while walking through the field? What was Jesus' comment to that?

Do we communicate God's peace to a server who works in a resturant during sabbath by eating at home?

What's sabbath all about?

What about all 7thDAs living in northern countries observing winter-sabbath 1/3 of the friday (from sundown 3pm) and 2/3 of the saturday? Are they keeping the seventh day holy from evening to evening? Are they breaking the 4:th commandment if they work nightshift 3pm - 11pm saturday?

If you have concerns about resting, or maybe letting your wife rest, from arranging the sabbath lunch by eating out, don't rest!

What's sabbath all about? For you? For me?

Sabbath is made for man. Man is not made for the sabbath!

Let's keep the sabbath-rest holy by resting in God, and together with Him and His image and creation!

A rest for minds and souls without worries if the consecrated bread are forbidden fruit.

Lets let the Son of Man even be the Lord of the Sabbath!

It's very interesting to watch how our Adventist-ness holds captive our thinking so pervasively.

I wasn't writing about eating out on Sabbath. Forget eating out on Sabbath.

The point that I hoped to make, illustrated by my experiences at a restaurant in Loma Linda on Sabbath, is that:

1. Sabbath is not primarily about do's or don't's, it's about holistic rest and uniform justice for all of creation.

2. When we keep the Sabbath, there seems to be a tendency to "keep it to ourselves", which is in opposition to the spirit of the Sabbath.

3. If we are really serious about the Sabbath, we will extend its blessings as widely as possible, not asking what would be the biggest blessing to me and my house only, but rather asking what might extend the Sabbath blessing as far as possible.

I'm not in favor of Sabbath rest for some at the expense of others. I'm thinking of Elaine, who it seems has borne the brunt of much Sabbath labor (cooking and cleaning up) in order to provide Sabbath blessing for others. Is that the case? If that's a correct assessment, it is that sort of lopsided observance that I would oppose.

Daneen, we're on the same page, I think.

This article could serve as a poster child for the mass exodus of 2nd and 3rd generation members from the NAD. As a recently retired academy teacher, I can state that the article perfectly reflects the disinterest and disengagement that young people feel towards their parents’ and grandparents’ church and its underlying message of behavior based acceptance by God.

Questions and discussions that attempt to codify Sabbath keeping, jewelry, makeup, movies, diet, haircuts, etc. all point to our church as still being primarily engaged in the pursuit of a spiritual eccentricity that somehow belies Godliness. At what point do we finally say enough is enough? Is this really our approach to understanding and engaging with the power that created our universe? The old model didn’t work for Pharisees and it won't work today. We SDAs face the same serious issues that all of modern society faces today, and none of them are addressed by our guilt ridden obesssion over the spirituality of simple acts of daily living.

As part of a teaching unit, I used to have my academy students write a timed, extemporaneous essay titled “What does it mean to be an SDA?” Completion of the assignment was the only requirement for a perfect grade. After several attempts, I became so depressed that I finally abandoned the assignment. Maybe 1 in 20 students would equate being an SDA with living a Christ centered life of spiritual freedom and service. The rest all focused on not working on Sabbath, not drinking, not smoking, etc.
Young people inherently recognize these “issues” as irrelevant. Many of them associate the church by default as being irrelevant and it fades from their lives in a rapid fashion. As long as we continue to define ourselves by what we don’t or shouldn’t do, we will continue to be irrelevant.

Hi Ron. See my previous comment.

Two valid poles of Sabbath-
1. "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." "All things are for your sakes." "Whether Paul, or things to come; all are yours; and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's."
2. "The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." "I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them."

a. Fulfill needs of self and others. Jesus fulfilled his needs and those of his disciples by gathering grains and eating after church on Sabbath. He pointed to David eating shewbread "unlawfully" to satisfy his hunger. For needs, even breaking "holy" laws becomes "lawful". For wants...?

b. Fulfilling God's work. He used the argument that "on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless." "..service of God is first of all. The object of God's work in this world is the redemption of man; therefore that which is necessary to be done on the Sabbath in the accomplishment of this work is in accordance with the Sabbath law."DA 285 God's work of the redemption of man is a very flexible definition- Would it involve social redemption(justice) like picketing and marching and voting and campaigning? Would it involve enviromental redemption like picking up trash, planting trees, recycling, creating park policies? Or does "necessary"- EGW's interpretation of limits- not the Bible's- make SDAs passive on Sabbath when Jesus would have preferred the SAbbaths to be an explosion of activism?

c. Here's where I think EGW's addition of "necessary" is not supported by the Biblical accounts. Jesus healed the man with the withered hand, and the chronically lame man by the pool of Bethsaida. In both he was specifically accused of breaking the Sabbath because it was not "Necessary" to do it right then, and it was identical with His routine work. His reply? "Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil?" No Jew has a habit or intention of doing evil on the Sabbath day! Yet Jesus was re-defining evil here as- prohibiting another's ability to satisfy a "want"(neither man was dying right then) with "unnecessary" timing. EGW says the evil was their planning to kill him for this.

d."Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days."Math 12:12.

Do well, do good, do God's work of redeeming man, fulfill needs even if breaking laws, relieve good wants even if it can wait another day. Boy, that last one is an invitation to much interpretation...but let us not be evil and resent the ones who can and courageously do it.

As a mother with six young kids still, I bear the "brunt" of Sabbath work for the family, and an occasional sermon preparation plus lunch for company turns it into a Sabbath marathon. Sometimes it is a holy and exciting privilege to exercise all capacities to the full in blessing others on that special day! Other times it is a blessed peace to eat out in a restaurant (with some distance away to not be a stumbling block to my midwest adventist neighbors)and forget preparing and clean up absolutely nothing afterwards-absolutely heavenly-and I'm not being sacreligious!

"Rest" doesn't mean inactivity, but being in Christ- and sometimes that pushes us to action, and other times it calls us to be still. Sabbath gives us both options. There's more freedom in scripture and original intent of the Sabbath than the narrow spectrum we allow ourselves as Adventists. We need a Sabbath rest from our upbringing?

In my experience Sabbath/Church usually becomes just another frenetic day of activity. Everyone needs to be involved. It is not good to be just another pew sitter. Then comes committee and council meetings. We really need to be on time. God is a God of order. We are representing God. Even a sermon with the main point of don't expect to come to church late and expect a full blessing from God.

At some point it should be realized that this is all run by compulsive people. It is more relaxing to sleep a little later, go into town for a cup of coffee, maybe chat with a few people you meet, browse a few garage sales or thrift stores, have lunch and go back home for a snooze in the hammock.

The idea that Sabbath is for going out and "saving" people because time is short, can turn it into just another work day.

I wasn't raised so liberally to consider eating at a restaurant on Sabbath, but I have been "guilty" once or twice in the past when co-workers or friends have invited us for fellowship. I don't think it's an issue, however I do want to highlight the benefits of eating at home.
-The authority of the family-mom and/or dad presenting the food prepared by all
-The privacy of the family-no wandering glances/comments at other families in the restaurant
-The freedom to discuss church service without fear of scaring non-churchgoers (this is ineffective witnessing)
-The ability to control conversation not influenced by a public environment
_For kids, going out to eat can make important celebrations such as birthdays and wedding seem less of a deal.

Just some thoughts...

Joann

Jared,

I thoroughly enjoyed your article. I grew-up in Loma Linda and never even knew people felt so strongly about going out to eat on Sabbath; it wasn't until I moved away from California that I discovered that a lot of SDA's don't eat out on Sabbath. At first I tried to resist their "legalism"; but my position changed as I started to notice the environment and that the dialogue amongst the company I was with would turn to the football game on the TV or the attractiveness of the waitress. I then started thinking about Nehemiah 13 and Exodus 20 and that the area within my "Jerusalem" or my "gates" was the table that I occupied and the wallet in my pocket. I didn't need to make others work within my "gate." Now you have given me a further thought to ponder in this idea of Sabbath Justice.

With regards to eating out on the Sabbath, or anything else which requires someone having to work on the Sabbat to provide the service is, "Would I feel comfortable morally missing church to provide this service which I am about to receive on teh Sabbath?" There are certain areas where I would have absolutely no qualms. This would include being a police officer, a fire fighter, or taking my turn in accepting duty in monitoring an electric power generating station because I freely use these services.

I became sensitized to this issue before my wife and I became Adventists. We were active in a Sunday-keeping church, and we would enjoy going to a restaurant after lunch for a relaxing meal. At times we would join with others in our church for some extended fellowship. However, later on my wife worked as a waithress for a few years, and she quickly learned that Sunday was an all-hands day. Going to church on Sunday morning was completely out of the question. Because of this, some people in the church who would go to restaurants criticized her to me for being so lax as to miss church for this reason. They made it plain that they would never consider skipping church to work at a restaurant. I consider such a statement to be the height of inconsistency.

However, such an attitude is not universasl. Several years later I visited the Sunday School class at another church. before the lesson began they were making plans to eat out after church was over. I asked them if they would have any qualms or objections of their children having to miss church to make this meal possible by being a server or cook? Their answer was, "NO." They explained to me that rather than treating Sunday as a sabbath, they believed that this was an opportunity to celebrate in Christ's resurrection, and they would have no problem with a close family member having to miss church for that reason. At least they are consistent.

Bottom line: I would not feel comfortable missing church on Sabbath to work at a restaurant, therefore I do not feel right asking someone to do something that I would not do. To me, this is the same as an Ortxhodox Jew utilizing a "Shabbat Goy" to turn on a light switch, which is something their understanding of the Sabbath prohibits (kindling a flame).

For all the reasons Jared mentions, I do not like to eat on Sabbath at the Soup Plantation on Hospitality Lane across Interstate 10 slightly to the north of Loma Linda.

I much prefer the restaurant at the Hilton Hotel on the same street.

Although it is not much more expensive, especially if one goes easy on the fancy desserts and [nonalcoholic!] drinks. But its atmosphere is much more harmonious with what I understand Sabbath to be. And they let us quietly converse as long as we want--two or more hours is our average.

I like the "Napa Estate Salad." There some good pastas and hot vegetable combinations too. I'm told the salmon is excellent.

So few people are there that I'm confident that the staff would be on hand anyway and it certainly is not stressed.

My second choice would be Napolis on Redlands Boulevard, not the Home Town Buffet next door. But I think it is more costly.

What's the point? Maybe time and place make a difference.

Dave

I still feel a slight sense of disappointment that people are still so hung up on arguments for or against eating in restaurants on Sabbath.

That, historically, is the debate that Adventists love to have, putting forth their best arguments to eat out or not to eat out. But that debate misses the heart of the Sabbath commandment as set forth in Scripture:

"...the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."
(Deuteronomy 5)

At the risk of starting another tangential discussion (please don't get hung up on the case itself), I will offer another illustrative experience:

Yesterday after Church, we visited friends for lunch. Lots of people were there. Surveying the scene before mealtime, I noticed quickly that all the women were in the kitchen preparing while the men were in the living room on couches talking.

This is another example of how some people enjoy rest at the expense of others. It has become normal, cultural, and it is what the Sabbath commandment is steering us away from. Sabbath justice, again, is about providing rest and blessing as widely as possible.

The command I quoted above in Deuteronomy deliberately goes beyond the scope of the command in Exodus (which we're much more familiar with), denouncing rest at others' expense.

Dave Larson is right in saying that time and place make a difference. I wholeheartedly agree there.

And Arlyn is right on target with this, I would say:

"We need a Sabbath rest from our upbringing?"

Hey Jered, how about all chipping in to help with preparing Sabbath dinner and ceaning up afterward? When I led out in an Adventist amateur radio retreat in Maryland the rule was that no one would miss anything (including worship) to feed us, even if the menu had to be compromised. All chipped in getting things ready after worship. After the meal was eaten the usual setting of the women washing the dishes, while the men sat to visit, When I suggested to the men that they help out, without exception they were very willing, and the women really enjoyed the chance to visit. I have found out that the more people who join with the preparation/cleanin, the better the fellowship becomes.

I'm glad you asked. Once I saw what was going on, I spent some time in the kitchen with the womenfolk putting lunch together. I'm making it a practice to take part in the heretofore female-specific tasks of food prep and cleanup. I don't always like doing it, but I always feel good about doing it.

Jared, I think I am missing something. Dave Larson sets up a new standard, "Time and place make a difference". This is new and different then the historic SDA debates? It just sets a new standard to debate. And the kitchen help? Before you know it we will all be competing to see who can relieve each other the most so that there will be rest for everyone. What if someone wants to serve? Paul talks about circumcision of the heart. I believe if my heart is circumcised as a sign of dedication to God much of this Sabbath concern will fall away with the "foreskin". I want to learn to walk freely and lightly.

Pffhew! I came to leave a comment but then kind of got bogged down in all the other comments. I grew up never eating out on Sabbath, and not getting gas in the car on Sabbath (like so many others) and over time, created my own way of worshipping and resting on the 7th day. Yes, we do eat out, sometimes we get gas, etc, but I do often ponder my Sabbathkeeping. (Not out of guilt though!) I want to WORSHIP and REST, and I also want to obey God. So, as I seek and grow, I feel that God will give me moments of clarity in understanding His will. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I truly enjoyed your ponderings and have often had similar thoughts.

"Dave Larson sets up a new standard, 'Time and place make a difference'. This is new and different then the historic SDA debates? It just sets a new standard to debate."

Is that such a new standard? That was always the test applied to movies when I was a kid. If it was in a theater, it was wrong. If it was a 16mm film shown in the church gym on a Saturday night, it was OK (with a young, dark-haired Don Sahly introducing it and underscoring the moral principles of the film).

If those who are so concerned about observing Sabbath, would only reread Paul's letters to the Ephesians, Galatians and Colossians regarding the Law and honoring a day, this would be a non-subject.

The attempts to observe a Jewish holy day without the Jewish trappings, presents an almost insurmountable obstacle. If a person does honest and good work, whatever the occupation, does it somehow become "sin" by the clock? Does God operate on earthly time? And did the ancient Hebrews, living in one small area of the world, long before time zones, ever imagine such developments as time zones and areas where the sun never rose nor set for much of the year? Was this not day of rest given to former slaves who were expected to work 24/7, and to memorialize their delivery from Egypt? That there are two accounts of the Ten Words that are not the same give evidence of several writers of the Torah. In addition, there is no command nor word of anyone observing a day of rest until the Exodus from Egypt, which would indicate that this was the identifying feature of that law.

In this context, the day one chooses to eat out should be a trivial concern, whether it is affordable or not. For the majority of women, who are still responsible for feeding the family, eating out whenever, is a restful treat.

A friend of mine along with several other Adventist medics received permission to "observe the sabbath" while serving on military ship. The ship crossed the international dateline and Sabbath became Sunday - they truly lost the Sabbath. Which day should they have observed? There was significant conflict of what to do. This truly happened. I know this is slightly off topic but . . . I'd like to hear some opinions.

I was on an Attack Transport on the way to Buna, New Guinea from San Fransico when we crossed the date line and Sabbath was lost. Since I was dead weight cargo without any duties, the problem didn't arise for me. However, I thought about it many times.

1. It must be God didn't intend the Israelites to be world travelers.

2. God is in charge not the Sun.

3. God not time is to be worshipped.

4. If that is the worst problem a Christian has to deal with
fortunate indeed is he.

5. To be absolutely pure then one would have to be on Mount Sinai time. In which case the Sabbath would not have been made for man but man for the Sabbath. That is not the God I worship.

Man was made with circadian rythmns. The seven day cycle is one. Man was also made to honor his Creator. It is great when the two match.

I remember the great debate in Academy. Should a man, shave on the Sabbath or should he shave on Friday right after he shined his shoes. Great Topic lousy problem solving.

I was drafted at 18. I got Sabbath off and went to church in Rockford, Ill. They called a surprise inspection Monday morning. The first Lt. spotted my stubble as weak as it was and asked: "Soldier when did you shave last? I meekly replied: "Saturday Morning, Sir". He replied: "A man shaves every day!" Did you ever hear 240 men laugh before daylight? The Lt's day was made! Every time I headed to the latrine in the morning, someone would shout: "Don't forget to shave!"

Too many keep the Sabbath that way. Brother and Sister enjoy it. God gave it to us for good reason. Just remember church going and worship may be too entirely different experiences. Tom

Tom, Rockford is my home church, but you're the first person I've known of who spent time at Camp Grant.

BTW, I've meant to ask you about someone who is no doubt a relative of yours. E-mail me billcork at sbcglobal dot net.

OK, I just deleted about 15 min. worth of thoughts and typing (I'm sure some of you would be glad :) ), in favor of this:

"Wow, look at that awesome tree! Hey, there's another one! That one over there sure is big! All these trees are great, but I sure do wish there was a forest around here to look at."

We're missing the forest for the trees, and my guess is that Satan is pretty happy about that.

To Jared: I loved your post, and your later reply. Your message and thoughts were NOT lost. Keep up the creative, critical, and thoughtful writing.

To everyone: Keep praying, studying, and asking the Holy Spirit to draw you closer to God. God will not leave us in the dark if we are truly seeking a closer walk with Him. We just have to let go of our weaknesses, whatever they are (pride, stubbornness, etc), and follow God's leading in our lives. May God bless each of you in your studies of Him.

I, also, grew up in a home where we never went out to eat on Sabbath. Even as we raised our children, neither my husband nor I had any desire to change our “standard.” However, in recent years I have had several long stints of being very ill in bed. I greatly missed/am missing going to church and the fellowship of friends. When I begin to recover, I first try to make it through church, then S.S. and church. It is always so good to be back. But, when I finally have enough strength to stay up through lunch, too, we have invited friends to join us in a quiet corner of a quiet restaurant. What a joy it is for me to fellowship with people again. Often times those conversations end up being much more spiritual than ones we used to have when we invited large groups to our home after church. Until I am well enough to do that again, these respites with friends are food to a starving soul!

Awe, one of my favorite subjects, the SDA "god", the Sabbath. The shadow day of the True Rest, Jesus, Col 2: 16, 17. I know most of you will say it is talking about the ceremonial not moral law, oh really:

2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Heb 8:13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Now, a story, I asked an SDA Pastor once, before he became a Conference President, if I was evangelizing a water treatment plant manager, whose product we shower with (most of us) every Saturday morning before church, would he be able to be a member of an SDA church? His answer, he would have to have a work schedule that allowed him to attend services on Saturday!!!

What of a police officer, SDA, who has to take his turn at drunk detail on an occasional Friday night? In the D.C. area, I knew a cop who was excommunicated from one SDA church and accepted with open arms at another. However, that church that accepted him, had a rule that no smokers could be baptized until they overcame the habit!!!! Where does the power of God fit into the coming or accepting of Christ's gift? Where is the empowerment of the gospel?

We all know very well, it is wrong to eat out on Sabbath. This is a Holy Day. No matter how you try to butter it up. Let us reason and pray on this matter. Lets be safe than sorry in that great day. God help us all. www.sdarm.org

Another story, at PUC in the '50s. I worked as a checker in the cafeteria, and Sabbath noon was our "longest day" due to the two services in old Irwin Hall. One Sabbath a stranger arrived at check out with a full tray and proceeded to tell me that he didn't believe in paying for meals on Sabbath. I looked at the line behind him and put his meal on my own card, gave him as slip with my name and address, and said "send me the money when you can". Of course he never did. Is that legalism with a bite?

For those who believe it is wrong to eat out on Sabbath, it must be presumed that you never are away from home or out-of-town on that day, or that becomes your "fast" day.

Jesus and the apostles ate out in a grain field.
Would picking fruit from a tree to eat on Sabbath be breaking the law?

In an effort to save miles and gasoline, on the way home from church, I stopped at the university's farm store where fresh corn and other vegetables are the freshest in town and made some purchases. Otherwise, I would have had to make a separate trip tomorrow, a round trip of 10-15 miles and at the price of gasoline, it is not good stewardship to waste money. Nor, do I feel a guilty conscience at all about eating in a restaurant on Sabbath. A local buffet usually sees up to half of the church members eating there after church--a welcome respite from preparing and serving meals at home, plus the opportunity to fellowship and enjoy the other members.

As Paul so eloquently said: Let every one be convinced in his own mind. This applies to all that we do, including a day observed.

Nancy, so waitresses can't be SDAs that work ever other weekend, but police that have drunk detail on Friday night can. The water treatment plant manager that supplies your drinking and shower water for Saturday morning that works every other weekend, can't be an SDA.

Where is the concern for souls in this reasoning?

Nancy, do you have a prioritized list of what vocations may properly do on Sabbath?

What services are you willing to forego on Sabbath: firemen, ambulance, ER, water, electricity, and would you refuse to call for such for a full 24-hour period on Sabbath?