Alex--

This reminds me of a Klansmen who, while a video played in court of him shooting someone, said, "Well, that looks like me but I sure don't remember shooting him."

Who taped me on this, and when? I think I remember saying this but not sure when, and where.

Anyway, hope it helps answer a few things.

Cliff

Can someone who has seen the complete video explain exactly what Cliff had to give up to accept Adventism?

You know how I've mentioned the need for your Hope TV overlords to put your CLIFF! videos on YouTube? And you know that doppelgander you mention in your testimony?

Well, here at Spectrum, ve haf our vays. . .

Actually, I think that this was shot by some good folks doing video work for the Trans-European Division.

Elaine--

In 1979, right before I turned 24, I had a powerful conversion expeience. For two and half years I had been writing a novel; the book consumed me, controlling my life outside the pages more than I the lives on them. Then, that evening, the Lord Jesus came to me in my room and said, Cliff, you have been playing with Me long enough. If you want Me tonight, burn the novel.
The novel was my God, but because we must have “no other gods besides” (Exodus 20:3) the true One, the book had to go if I wanted the true One, which I did. Thus, after hours of divine-human wrestling, and knowing nothing about salvation, nothing about the three angels, and nothing about myself as a sinner--I took the manuscript, two and a half years of my existence, and burned it on small hotplate and became a born again believer in Jesus. With the burning of the novel, I had nothing left; the book was my life, nothing else mattered to me and with it gone I was stripped down to nothing. All I had ever wanted in my life was to be a novelist; that night I had to give it up, which I did. And I can honestly say I have never, for a moment, been sorry. It was my own personal Damascus road experience.

That's the gist of it.

There are a couple more clips from the interview at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cliff+goldstein&search_type= .

I appreciate the insight into Bro Goldstein's personality.

If I can respect your journey Bro, I hope you can respect mine.

Cliff, thank you for sharing the historical background.

I have read a couple of your books, and reviewed a few quarterlies.

I have to say that your dream of being a novelist has been fulfilled.

It does seem though, that you lean towards the fiction genre.

To bad the cave dwelling background has already been taken. I am sure it would have been good for a 10% sales bump at least.

Randy

Thanks, David. I am trying, I really am, as hard as some things are for me to reconcile. But I do appreciate your friendship and your forever kind spirit, and I always think fondly of the time your wife was here at the GC.

Randy . . . ? Well, whatever.

The first time I met a young man who was entertaining a group on the porch of the boy's dorm at AUC by describing in great detail "How Much He Gave Up to Become a Sevehth-day Adventist after growing up as a high Hindu." I interrupted by saying: "Friend, why not tell us how much you gained by becoming a Seventh-day Adventist?" If you go on like this, I venture to say before the fall term you will be back in India." He laughed, and went on with his story. Yet he was missisng by the time the fall term began.

Since, Evangelists have passed through Augusta, with stories of their "Rock and Roll" or similar past. Their past was always in vivid color. They also returned to the lights and sounds of the dance hall and bars.

It seems to me that story that needs to be told is how much Jesus Christ gave up to save me!I think that is a least part of the Gospel Story that begins with the commission--Go ye---Tom

I heard Cliff saying that the high value he placed on Adventism as a convert seemed to him to not be shared by those who had grown up in it. Adventism for my old man meant leaving his fathers house and being shunned by his own father while for me Adventism is something I experienced with a loving father.

I don't have a problem with what Cliff is saying at all. I think it's a true and helpful corrective reminding us that there is something special about this church those of us who are raised and remain Adventist may not always recognise or appreciate.

Johnny

I don't either--just so it doesn't become a "Jonny one note!" I've read it quite often already. Certainly this web-site is quite familiar with that history. There are millions who haven' heard of Phil 2: 8-11. Tom

Cliff - Thanks for your willingness to share and engage here in this forum. You take many hits but you don't give up on this crowd. I appreciate that. I wish that you'd see more that the Adventism you bought into may not be the Adventism embraced by others, and that these other forms of Adventism are just as legitimate as yours.

Randy - I denounce and reject (to use that Clintobamanian phrase) that sarcastic statement you made earlier about Cliff. You probably thought that Cliff can take that sort of barb, and I'm sure he can. But that was rude and unkind. I say this not as a theological ally of Cliff (I read the Gospels as largely fictional/mythological), but as one who appreciates Cliff's authenticity and transparency.

Cliff

I think the "David" to whom you refer might be me because of your reference to a wife who was at the GC and that could be Bronwen.

In any case, thank you for sharing with us this epiphany. I think that God reaches people in many different ways and that we should respect them all.

The closest experience I've had to one like yours is that when I awoke one morning after falling asleep praying most of the night about a big problem, I "heard" a "voice" say this:

"Oh, Dave, lighten up!"

I asked my friends if I should take this message seriously, perhaps even treat it as though it were from God even though we all know about the psychodynamics of such occurrences.

Without a single exception everyone one of them said:

"Yes, Dave, please do! Please!"

Thanks again!

Dave

Cliff:

Thanks for answering the question about your conversion that I asked, I hadn't heard all of it before but only snatches caught in your writing.

It is almost always expected that new converts to any faith will project more enthusiasm than for those who had it handed down to them (in various ways) by parents, teachers, or grandparents. It is in the oral story telling that we learn the most, and the only way the Bible could have been transmitted to us. We must be wary and a little skeptical, however, that we do not read it as accurate history: it was never intended to be. Hebrew hyperbole is a fact, and embellishing a story makes it even more memorable if it must be handed down for hundreds of years.

Elaine, he didn't mention it, but Cliff has an autobiography titled "The Clifford Goldstein Story" that you might find interesting/illuminating. The ABC has it, and I think you can still get used copies via Amazon.

Thanks, Tim.

Dave--

Yes, you're the Dave I meant. And Bronwen, whom I remember very well, please say hello to her for me.

Yeah, I have admit that experience was jarring to be sure; I still don't know how I could have burned that novel that night. But I did, here I am, and the church is stuck with me. I have no choice but to be here, at least if I am honest with myself and the Lord.

And I know, too, now with 2 teenagers, that there's a world of difference between coming into this as an adult and being raised in it. Man, do I know!

Appreciate the kind words even from those who don't agree with anything I believe. As much as I hate to admit it, putzing around on this blog has helped me chill out a bit regarding you libbies and all.

HC,

It seems like Cliff is the only one allowed to have an opinion here.

As I recall, it was Cliff that asked any Adventist who didn't share his view on Creation-Evolution to just leave the church. I mean, why would you want to stay if you didn't hold the same view as he did, was the reasoning. To me, that was the ultimate in arrogance and was extremely dismissive of anyone who saw things differently than he did.

I read cover to cover his book, "The Remnant". I appreciated the first several chapters as being a decent historical treatise, but the second half of the book was mere conjecture, that bore little substantive theological proof or analysis, let alone having a contextual biblical foundation. Hence my reference to fiction. I was bewildered that this book even made it to the 50% off table at the ABC.

I have spoken to more people, who's last straw with Adventist theology was the Sabbath School Quarterly a couple of years back on the 1844 doctrine. Again, it left no room for interpetations other than that of the author.

I have spoken to many SDA church Elders who refused to teach that quarter, because they could not support the lessons with Scripture.

I think they owe a debt of gratitude to Cliff, as that quarter for the first time showed many, how convoluted and distorted that belief is, and then to have their walk with God, and their Christianity judged because they could not profess what what written in that quarterly. Many have left, as they realized the adherence to Adventism's fundamental beliefs to often was expected to take precedence over conscience and personal integrity.

I do not begrudge Cliff, his opinions and judgments on those who see things in a different light than he does. But I do feel that his backpage pulpit has hindered the Gospel of Christ as often as it has supported it.

Randy

Oh, the privilege of the bully pulpit!

I am getting more and more worried about the prevailing undercurrent that God created man so he could become a Seventh-day Adventist.

Thanks to Dick Larsen for posting the link helping people to see other clips from the same interview.

This clip is the work of tedMEDIA productions (www.tedmedia.org, and www.youtube.com/tedmedia). I had the pleasure of interviewing Cliff for these videos, and as our conversation wandered in many directions, we cut the interview into shorter bits according to topic. I don't think Cliff ever fully went into the details of what he left behind to commit to being an Adventist. I'm sure those who want to find out can go get his book somewhere.

I have to agree with Cliff though, that the experience of becoming Adventist and being born into an Adventist family is vastly different. While it is important to focus on what those who have joined the church gained in doing so, it's pretty accurate that far too many of those born into Adventism have never had to sacrifice anything for their beliefs or identity.

My own parents were disowned by family members and shunned for years when they began studying the bible and worshipping on Sabbath. Quite different from my own experience growing up in a loving and supportive Christian home...

My hat is off to those in every generation who find the courage and commitment to leave everything behind to follow God.

Back to tedMEDIA videos. This is from the youSAY collection, where anybody can say anything to share their thoughts. Watch dozens more from other people at: www.youtube.com/tedmedia, on the youSAY playlist.

Or, send us your own for our upcoming webcam edition @ ask@reframe.info.