All together now:

Jesus loves me when I'm good.
When I do the things I should.
Jesus loves me when I'm bad,
but it makes him oh so sad.

With such a Jesus one cannot fail; not at home, not in Iraq.

Henk

Good to hear from you again. Jesus may forgive us, if and when we repent. Never-the-less, we still may have to live with the consequences--take David for an example. Or Bush, the neo-con's and us. Immagine gasoline costs as much as bottled water. I live on the top of a hill. I can see smoke coming up out of the woods from several locations. My son says, "Dad don't go down those dirt roads! If gas gets any higher, I might take a chance.
Tom

Hi Tom, how are you doing?
As to your remarks, it's a terrible job to convert Christians to Christianity. It frustrates me to see so much support for this war in Iraq coming from professed Christians. That we, as Christians, can make mistakes, sure. But to persist in those mistakes is certainly a godsend to Satan.
My concern is that war is part and parcel of the American way of life. Imagine Europeans fleeing from persecution a couple of hundred years ago embracing the violence of those that came after them - Utopia taken over by Demonia. The Wild West is still among us, manifesting itself in our midst. Has the U.S. ever seen a day without a war where they are involved in? And this war against the "tewwowists" (Bush) will last a lifetime, according to Rumsfeld and Cheney. If you want peace, send their children to the battlefield, and not yours.
And the Christians, well, they will celebrate Easter with a lot of singing and signing up.

Henk

If you are sad and disappointed, just think of Jesus!

We can blame our history. We can blame the present Administration, we can blame Hollywood. But there is none to blame but us! Tom

Tom,

My relation with Jesus is OK.
My concern is that there is so much lying and disinformation coming from your government that I'm quite amazed you Americans buy it day after day. That Christian organizations ally themselves with the objectives of your government. That Jan Paulsen will remind Adventists of the historic position on non-noncombatancy but to this government he represents what he himself embodies: a silent church.
You know, where are the days of Martin Luther King, when "the media" did not buy into the FBI's story of King's visiting prostitutes; the media refused to swallow the hook, line and 'sinker' of an organization that was bent on ruining an honest man. Nowadays the same media parrot the lies of your government without any questions asked. If you, Tom, want to really know what's going on in your country, you have to go to foreign news outlets. Without any diffidence I can state that the brutality of your government has nothing to fear from your media.
Go to this website

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=us_occupation_of_...

and notice that most of the "dangerous" information for your government comes from outside the USA. The level of betrayal in the USA is unprecedented.
Last week I took Richard Rice's book "Believing, Behaving, Belonging", when I saw something that I did not notice the first time I read that book. Mentioned among the other books of R. Rice (page 2) was one about process theology, written together with David Ray Griffin, a process theologian from Claremont.
Now it so happened that I visited Griffin's lectures when he was in Europe. Surprise, surprise, the lectures were not about process theology, but about the unlikeliness that 9/11 was an unforeseen event, to put it mildly.
How is it that David Griffin has written more than 20 books on theology which were all reviewed in the main media, and that he was praised for his uncompromising logic, and that now he has published four books on 9/11 there is a complete media blackout? Still that man alone is doing more for his country than all American adventists together, because he is not shy to tackle one of the most vexing questions of our times. Go read his books.

Henk

I don't know where you get the idea that I am defending the
Bush War--its run-up, its foul up, and its likely run down.

I believe Eroupe is rightly agast. Never-the-less, Eroupe's history ancient and recent is no better. You have had 100 year wars and 30 year wars. Your colonies fared no better than ours.

The present situation, merely reflects, the heart of man.

Yet every war has had a religious component. The religious right in America is only the most recent manifestation.

Maybe you can pick a period of history of man more to your liking. I think in AD 30 they even killed God.

I agree, how dumb can man be? Including how unwilling to face or publish the truth or even credit the truth teller. Tom

Tom,

I use the word "your government" in a general sense; it is your government, isn't it? I know you are not defending Bush et al. But are you fighting this government's direction, organizing demonstrations, writing pamphlets, painting banners, or just saying you don't like Bush?

You know by now I'm not proud to be an European, because its history is full of ignorance and violence as well. But I cannot be held responsible for its past, but for the present. I'm not reminding you of your history either, but your present situation. So let's stop this "holier than thou" history perspective.

And read Griffin's books, for heaven's sake. I hear nobody here on this blog about one of the most influential days of our times. Unravel 9/11 and you know why "truth will set you free", why the church should present its word of liberation and rejection of war more forcefully. It's to easy to blame "human nature". We are moral individuals, and we can decide on whose side we stand.

Henk

I guess I should have been sending you my letters to the editor of the local Newspaper as well as the Atlanta Constitution. At 83 I don't march much anymore with two hip replacements as a result of WWII.

Also my letters to Georiga Congressmen. My position is very clear within 100 miles of Augusta, at least. I don't intend to take up arms in this sea of trouble. If you send me your e-mail address I will send you my Sunday School Lesson at Reid Memorial Church against a preemptive war given about 5 weeks be "Awe and (Shudder).

I recall a verse in Gen. where Jacob says: "you make my name stink in all the earth." Only the prespective of time will tell us how bad we really did. Tom

Thank you, Tom, that's what I want to hear. People in action against hijackers and greedy dictators. Spread this "virus", will you? It's far too complacent over here, with an occasional exercise in narcissism.
And again, read Griffin. If he does not convince you that the US community is led like sheep to the slaughter, I'll pay you for Griffin's book.

http://www.amazon.com/11-CONTRADICTIONS-Letter-Congress-Press/dp/1566567...

Henk,

America is not a "Christian Nation"...but many Christians live here and have helped it become a better place.

I see your views as the antithesis of Pat Robertson and about as correct concerning government and politics,religion etc... Both of you and Griffin might consider a bit of "conspiracy" counciling.

pat

PS. Perhaps WFB comments towards JBS are appropriate to this "conspiracy model"...as subjective intention can not be made from our "objective consequence" constructs.

WFB-"The fallacy," I said, "is the assumption that you can infer subjective intention from objective consequence: we lost China to the Communists, therefore the President of the United States and the Secretary of State wished China to go to the Communists."

Pat,

Do your reading, junior. Who is talking about conspiracy? Not me. Do I owe you something else than your friendly remark to seek counseling? Have you read the book that I recommended?

What would be a Christian reaction to 9/11? That is what Griffin, among other things, is addressing -- all the more because the things that happened that day are not at all clear, certainly not to me. But if they are clear to you, why not write a book yourself. In any case, the reaction of the US to what happened on that day has meant the death of hundred thousands in Iraq. Congratulations. If a nation is collectively capable of doing such things, and it does not cause you to tear your hair out, who should seek counseling?

Hi Henk,

Is this not the Griffin you referred me to. Is Wikepedia wrong in their report about 9/11 and Griffin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ray_Griffin

Pat

Pat,
Yes, that's him.

1. It is always better to read the man's writings than to listen to opinions of others him, especially the opinions of those who might have vested interests in portraying someone who asks questions as a conspiracy-nut in need of counseling.

2. Guilty by association with "truthers"? So be it.

3. Come back on this, Pat, when you really have digested his latest book. Otherwise, God bless you.

Henk,

Think I will first spend my time reading how the government is covering up the disclosure of the landing of space ships and little green Martians in the Arizona desert.

regards

More seriously. I don't believe you or some others appreciate the complexity and "lack of monolithic thought" at the CIA/FBI inter government in conjunction with Pres./Congress etc necessary to create a "planned conspiracy" like 9/11.

There were obvious security foulups... some created by law not allowing FBI/CIA/Millitary intelligence sharing domestically...some by the way under the previous administration. But in my view it is wasted time to try and attribute this to a "deliberate conspiracy" in the creation and aftermaths of 9/11...makes for interesting fiction however.

If you wanted to say a "satanic conspiracy"(satan) working on many fronts with all types of peoples self interest and political interest and emotions... that may be a possibility while yet remaining "unplanned" at most individuals level.(obviously the terrorist had a plan)

That's all I have to say or will say on this.

An interesting twist on this that I heard on NPR awhile ago. Someone had attended a summit of several middle eastern countries and was amazed at how many people, especially from Saudia Arabia, interpreted both 9-11 and the Iraq war. The thinking was that the US was so powerful that there was no way we could have been caught flat-footed on 9-11 and no way we could be messing up so badly in Iraq. Therefore there must be some alternative explanation that we somehow orchestrated these things and will get a future benefit. Maybe we encouraged 9-11 which gave us an excuse to invade Iraq where we will establish a permanent presence the better to take over other muslim countries. Fascinating. Would that we were so good at planning (not that I think the afore mentioned goals are worthwhile.) The truth is more disconcerting I'm afraid.

Pat,

Have your way, but apparently you do not know what happened on 9/11 either. Why I should be the target of your ridicule is beyond me. The difference between you and me is simply that I want some simple questions to be answered, many contradictory statements coming from your government resolved, and clarity on the question why your government lied my government (and my fellow-citizens) into complicity in order to devastate Iraq. Maybe my government lied to me as well. If you can live with this sort of devious behavior, it shows how insensitive you are to the collateral damage of your country in this world. I would say, if your government does not respect the lives of innocent people anywhere in this world, you will have a hard time convincing us non-Americans that your government respects yours. Up to now your government has a very, very bad track-record, and it gets worse every day. Salute your flag next time; you've got my compassion.

Henk

We need to be spanked. But please list the governments that you know that tell the truth to their people and/or the world. Obviously invading Iraq was a huge mistake that will take decades or more to undo.

There is only one permanent solution. Let us pray and work towards that end. Even so come Lord Jesus. Tom

You're right Tom. There is no government that is honest all the time. I had to give some air to the feeling that someone turned a bloody serious matter into a smug travesty and dismissed the search for clarity as a waste of time. That way governments can do what they want. You're right, and still I will fight injustice and killing indifference where I can.
Respect you.

Henk,

You said, "Why I should be the target of your ridicule is beyond me."

Sorry.

I Should have stayed focused on the writers of "impossible for us to substantiate" conspiracy writer theorists.

pat

Pat,
Accepted.
You and I are living in what we call democracies. Governments should be held accountable. They are here for us and not the other way round. We vote them into office. If we do not ask the right questions, who will? As I stated earlier in this thread, US media has sold its soul to a secretive administration. Journalists do not ask the right questions. If such a large part of the inhabitants of the US has questions about 9/11, and there is a media blackout on this subject, it is no surprise that people get suspicious.
When we see the turn of events after 9/11, it is very reasonable to say that every spilled drop of innocent blood cries out for an explanation. It's far too easy to say that "it is impossible to substantiate", and it is still easier to dismiss the ones who ask as "conspiracy" writers/theorists. It is not the first time the US government instigated/invented/organized an "event" in order to start a war, I'm sorry to remind you.

Henk,

I'll wait for Christ's accurate interpretation of events.

pt

Henk

You certainly have a passion. It is not misplaced. But as a churchman, what about the veracity of top leadership of any church? I recently had a dialogue with an Archbishop from Spain that argued that the Inquisition was a civil matter not a church dominated pogrom. Then there was Walter Rhea et al.
Where do you stand on accountability in the puplit or board room? Have you read James Lowell recently? A portion is even in the English version of the SDA hymnal. "Truth forever on the Scaffold!" Tom

Henk

I think another good book to read on all this is the tiny volume titled "On Bullshit" by the Princeton philosopher Harry G. Frankfurt.

It is not about U. S. foreign policy; it is a serious discussion of three forms of curent discourse: (1) truth-telling, (2) deceiving and (3) bullshitting.

Frankfurt argues that users of the first two care about what actually is the case, the first to convey it and the second to conceal it.

The third simply don't care about the difference between truth and error. They just create their realilties by endless repeating what they want.

I found it very sobering.

Thanks!

Dave

Probably true Dave,

Often our political agendas and "desires" overide truth leading to deceiving and bullshitting and that is across the political spectrum in EVERY nation!! Half truths galore!

We seek another kingdom that is above!

pat

PS. I like this promise...

"21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.

Isa.65:21-25.

Pat
Beautiful! It's hard to imagine a more inviting picture of ecological flourishing. It's passages like this that give me hope. Thank you!
Dave

Tom,
As far as I am concerned I will not preach with a political agenda, although the examples I take in my sermons sometimes come from the political arena. We have a few adventist politicians over here, like Marianne Thieme - and some others too - and they do a good job, although I am not always in agreement with what they propagate, and I know one of them to be quite opportunistic, in his political life as well as his loyalty to the church.
In my personal life I'll keep in mind to be accountable as well. I can err in my judgment of behavior or opinions and of course have to avoid judging the persons themselves; I'm not perfect either.
More than pastors, elected officers of the church have a special obligation to not only comfort the victims of social and/or political injustice but to exert their influence on the political situation at large. In democracies this does not happen too much, but you and I know this to happen in countries where there is suppression of social/political/religious freedoms. Where would the Christian church have been if Bishop Tutu had been silent? (But read the Jan 11 blog at H0bbes' Place) I have corresponded with some people in South Africa in those days to remind them of their obligations - to no avail. It would have been far better when the local church leaders had expressed their concerns. The Silent Church by Zdravko Plantak gives you one side of the church I rather wouldn't have known about. Ronald Lawson has written articles of the church's behavior in South America, and I myself have written the editor of the Review about the church's collaboration with Pinochet; you would not believe your eyes when you read his answer... And yes, I am still waiting for Jan Paulsen's taking a public standpoint against the war in Iraq. Although it's been a long time ago that I was one of his students, for what I have seen from this president you can wait till the cows come home.

Dave,
I hope you do not place me in the third category.

Dave
I'm disappinted that you would use such vulgar language. This is a Christian conversation, isn't it?

Henk
I most certainly don't. You are in Category I, the truth-tellers. Thanks for that!
Dave