The poor reporter couldn't keep up!

His answers are but another reminder of how prophetic Martin Luther King was-

The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit, and if we ignore this sobering reality...and if we ignore this sobering reality, we will find ourselves organizing "clergy and laymen concerned" committees for the next generation. They will be concerned about Guatemala and Peru. They will be concerned about Thailand and Cambodia. They will be concerned about Mozambique and South Africa.

We will be marching for these and a dozen other names and attending rallies without end, unless there is a significant and profound change in American life and policy.

Listen and read the full speech entitled A Time to Break Silence.

DANG! That guy is a firebrand! Amazing!

And about the media? Aren't they supposed to ask questions and let the person being interviewed answer them? This guy was trying his best to bait the priest into saying something he could throw on the evening news. And he was also putting words in his mouth! Really poor journalism - I know...big shocker!

Too bad the reporter didn't ask Pfleger about the time he threatened to "snuff out" a gun dealer, and got a public rebuke from his bishop.

There was an article on this subject in the New Yorker that I thought was very insightful: Project Trinity.

Kelefa Sanneh writes, that Otis Moss III- Wright's successor, admits that Wright includes a lot of "barbershop talk." But the writer notes that "when Writght is in full prophetic mode" it is often difficult for listeners to separate his metaphorical claims from the literal ones. The writer goes on, "And like many preachers who see Biblical parables in contemporary politics, he has a weakness for theories that match his sense of outrage but not the facts, as when he repeated the popular conspiracy theory that 'the government lied about inventing the H.I.V. virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

Yes there is definitely a context in which Wright needs to cast himself as a renegade preacher. But when one is responsible for such a large congregation, why shouldn't it be a high priority for someone as educated as Wright to try and get the facts right all the time, not risk misinformation, and publicly apologize when he does get the facts wrong?
If he is going to do politics why not make it a priority to be careful and honest and not succumb to doing show-business?

I remember some strong language in the OT.

Always interesting to see Bill pop in with another out-of-context comment in some weird attempt to discredit a pastor who ministers in the urban world.

Instead of a sentence-long idea like Bill just displayed, here's an substantive conversation between a former Baltimore cop and a libertarian about guns in the inner city.

http://www.bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/10158

I'm sorry, when did a bishop's reprimand define morality for an Adventist pastor?

Great to see a pastor defending a dealer of guns vs. the mere words of an urban pastor dealing with terrible gun violence. The least of these and all. . .

Perhaps, Bill, you could lead us away from this high school-esque world of jejune fragments (what the NY Review recently called "molehill politics"), beyond the gotcha world of parsing single words?

Are you really trying to discredit this pastor with a fragment? Why?

Bill Cork,
Maybe Rev. Pfleger was saying a Psalm of Lament!

Oh God, we're being killed by guns sold at rock bottom prices without background checks at county fairs, hear our prayer.
Our enemies surround and pursue us, selling their wares in our neighborhoods, cities and towns. Oh Lord when will you dash their babies on the rocks? Oh Lord, hear our prayer. Selah! Amen!

Isn't Wright's diatribe similar to Bill Cosby's harsh rhetoric aimed at his own people? When will more spokespersons give an Amen to Cosby who so perfectly indicts the proud teen fathers who boast of their progeny with never a contribution to their upkeep?

While the Latino population in many inner cities rivals the African-Americans, it is still the latter who have the highest high school dropout rates and fewer college admissions. When these are addressed more often, and real actions taken to counteract them, then the Caucasian population will empathize and listen more attentively. Read the lateset USNWR article: "Teaching in the Trenches" of the consistent problems faced by the Teach for America interns who sign up to teach in inner city schools, dedicated to, and hoping to make a difference. How can our country, collectively, overcome these almost insurmountable problems?

One teacher recalls a student who had been absent for 3-4 weeks and when he finally returned, he explained he was at home because he got into a fight with another kid who came to his house several times with a gun and his mother refused to let him out. This student had received death threats against him and his family. When asked how this would eventually be resolved, he said, "One of us is gonna have to shoot the other." How many of us can even begin to imagine such a life?

Elaine,

Your point is well taken except Cosby, while aware of past injustices, does not blaim others or allow his community to use that as an excuse for an individual to practice improper behavior...black,white,Latino, or Asian.
Race theology divides!

pat

Pat, that is what I meant: Cosby is telling the Black community to look within, and not without for overcoming perceived inequities. Unless a people, whoever and wherever, decides to change, it cannot come from outside. And first, there must be recognition rather than denial.

I am continually disappointed by the jibes you like to take at the black community, Pat. Even Elaine is falling victim to the "victimhood" rhetoric. I have no idea what you mean by "race theology," but it's clear that what this Rev. says is true--if blacks criticize this country it's bigoted, ungrateful, victimhood that furthers their oppression, but if whites criticize it's "questioning."

Of course we all have a personal responsibility to enact change (within and without), but the level of institutional racism in this country is largely completely unperceived by whites. I had this conversation with my sister recently. We both realized that we never think about race. Why? Because we're white, so we don't have to. We enjoy white privilege, something so subtle and ingrained in our society that we don't notice it (although those who aren't white do). A few examples from an article I recently read in a sociolinguistics class:

I can hang out with several friends of my same racial background easily--nobody gets nervous and looks askance. I can walk into a bank casually dressed and it will be assumed that I am there on business. I can turn on the TV or open the newspaper and likely see members of my own race. I can buy a band-aid that matches my skin color. My children, if not attentive in class, are not as likely to be considered a "behavior problem," rather they're "not being challenged." I can talk about racism without seeming self-serving. I can make a mistake without worrying that others are judging my entire race based on me (since they know more than one or two white people).

This whole brouhaha over the few clips of Rev. Wright taken out a context have been very, very revealing about race relations in this country. I was never more respectful of Obama than I was listening to his landmark race speech several weeks ago. It would have been the politically safe and expedient thing to just completely disassociate himself from Rev. Wright. Instead, he wouldn't disown him, even though the said he did disagree with some of the harshest rhetoric. Rather, he said that he knew the man to be more than those few clips repeating endlessly on cable news programs. What a modeling of grace! I'm sure if someone had taped me in a "family" setting and then cut out certain clips, I'd sound like a monster too (and then Bill would have something to throw up later as a jab meant to discredit everything about my character).

Thanks for the post--although it makes me even more nervous about the state of journalism in this country! Yikes--talk about poor reporting.

Daneen,

I take no Jabs at the black ,white, Latino,or Asian community.

I suggest also there is not a black,white,Latino or Asian theology...they are the constructs of man.

pat

Isn't theology itself a human construct (men and women contribute to the study of God)? Isn't ethnicity largely a social construct? How exactly would one get at any knowledge or identity without negotiating a socially constructed "reality"?

Christ is our "Christian" identity.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Gal.3:27-29.

pat

Always interesting to see proof-texting in action. I just read Gal 2,3,4,5.

In fact, Paul was making a point about ethic/religious identity connected to cultic duties (the Jewish law) relating to salvation through Christ. Particularly interesting in ch. 2 when he calls out Peter as a hypocrite.

But let's be clear here Pat. No identity theologian is saying, like the Galatians, that one has to keep their ethnic rituals - like the Christian Jews were - to be saved. Good Pauline soteriology is rooted in Christ, but a simple visit to Grand Rapids reveals rich ways that Dutch culture mixes with theology.

We can have Dutch Reform theology but not African-American theology? Have you thought about that?

Rev. Wright never said or believed that one has to be black to be saved, and even Rev. Cone points out that being a Christian connects us spiritually in transcending ways, so it's not really clear what you're saying here. When you show me the Christ-ethnicity (wasn't he Jewish) I'll understand better why you keep trying to separate African-American Christians from their ethnicity. Remember, in Galatians Paul is talking about ethnic identity tied to salvation, not post-slavery community building.

Show me something you wrote during the 80s calling on the Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk in South Africa to abandon the Afrikaanese from their theology.

Well,

The point also is breaking down the barriers that separate is it not? Did Christ promote a "Nazereth theology"? After all, that was a bad place with poor cultural experiences out of which, "could any good come?"... As a matter of fact yes in spite of it all!

Of course, there are different ways cultures can celebrate Christ but they should not be creating barriers based on those cultures/ethnicity as part of a process that would separate them from the Chrisian community at large based on that "cultural/ethnic heritage." It's not really clear to me what you are saying either?

"He's a true patriot because he loves the country enough to criticize it and challenge it."

Now see that is an intriguing and a good definition of loyalty (or patriotism). Loyalty is not simply unquestinging acceptance. Someone who is loyal enough to a country or a community to truly care about its future has got to critically assess its shortcomings.

Prophets never offer criticism for the sake of destroying but rather of improving.

Jared,
Great point! I did spend an hour today listening to MLK as I folded laundry so forgive me for tossing in another quote highlighting your articulation of the prophetic call...

In 1957 when a group of us formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, we chose as our motto: "To save the soul of America."

We were convinced that we could not limit our vision to certain rights for black people, but instead affirmed the conviction that America would never be free or saved from itself until the descendants of its slaves were loosed completely from the shackles they still wear.

In a way we were agreeing with Langston Hughes, that black bard of Harlem, who had written earlier:

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath --
America will be!

Yes, you're right Pat, Jesus didn't advocate a city theology, but then Rev. Cone isn't saying that we're saved through Chicago theology either, is he? In fact, yes, we Christians believe that God incarnated into a specific nationality, as a Jewish man. Do you see the difference?

No one here is arguing against breaking down barriers. In fact, sometimes - especially for groups who have been recently singled out and systematically killed for their ethnicity (Jews, African-Americans) - a person can find Christ healing again in their culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo6x_iIBcbo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Before the sound bites, Rev. Wright was often breaking down barriers. Do you agree?

But beyond him, it's clear that too many white males are more scared about black Americans doing theology than any other ethnicity.

You write: "but they should not be creating barriers based on those cultures/ethnicity as part of a process."

Have you read Kosuke Koyama's Waterbuffalo Theology? Is a three-mile an hour God a barrier too?

Anyway Pat, you know your Dutch Reform theology (which is rooted in a culture), so I'm just waiting to see some writing from you in the 80s bringing up these barrier-busting concerns vis-a-vis Afrikaanse theology. Or has Christ just recently called you to breakdown the "barriers" that "ethnicities" put up between "themselves and the Christian community?"

Wow--I challenge us all to watch the "Fox-ized" clips in context--it's entirely different than what the late night pundits would have us arguing about. This one is only six minutes long, so that's still hardly a full context, but it certainly puts one of the most contentious clips in perspective. On a previous thread someone commented that black preaching is modeled on the Old Testament prophets who challenged far more than they comforted--this is clearly in that mold (although, you'll notice Fox never included the part in the middle about governments changing and failing their people but God never failing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw&feature=related

Elaine--I also wanted to point out that while there are a lot of different discussions about race and ethnicity in America, white and black race issues are still the big issue. Why? Because blacks became a minority in America against their will.

Immigrants might be minorities, but their narrative fits our American narrative, the meta-myth of the hardworking, risk-takers coming to the land of opportunity to better their futures. So, while I'd certainly never argue that latinos (or other voluntary minority groups) don't face discrimination, they are still a voluntary minority group.

The groups who have historically faced much more racism (both individual and institutional) and had a much more complicated path in American are the groups who were involuntary minorities (Hawaiians, Native Americans, and African-Americans).

I should dutifully note that the black church* was formed, in large part, as a reaction to the racist beliefs and policies of the mainstream,which then and arguably still is defined as 'white', church after Emancipation. Not only the Bible was used to justify slavery and some other stuff... On the other hand, and to the best of my knowledge black and white conferences were created for the same cultural issues which have been referred to earlier. After all, one reason the four Gospels differ in various respects is because they were intended for different cultures.

Therefore, the black church was 'political' because it formed as a result of a social issue. To expand on a point made earlier one may argue that the 'white' church was ,subtly,just as political except that it sought to maintain the status quo. However, whether this simplistic dichotomy still exists, to the extent it ever did, can certainly be questioned. Furthermore, as has been pointed out this is more a question of ethnicity than race e.g. a church with a predominantly West Indian population (or even indeed a African-American one) may not necessarily be a 'black' church. Nor, I'm assuming, would Korean church be the same as a Chinese one.

*Of course I've oversimplified this whole issue,brushing over among other things, the distinctions between black denominations and black congregations but there's always next time.

Daneen,

There is no reason to associate my remarks with "falling victim to the "victimhood" rhetoric."

All my childhood was spent in the DEEP South, where many of the towns had a larger population of Africa-Americans (correctly called "Colored" then) so I have a first-hand knowledge of living among them. Yes, I am acquainted with the "white only" drinking fountains and rest rooms and restaurants and the white SDA elders who "disinvited" visiting black brothers to the black church on the other side of town.

I stand with Cosby, however, that it is becoming quite disengenous to look outside at "Whitey" to blame for the African-Americans problems. Yes, we still have defacto segregation in the schools and other places, but how can the Whites possibly be blamed for the teen pregnancies, the high school dropout rates, when there are those who have risen above all that? Why? Is it lack of opportunity?

There are first and second generation Latinos in the U.S. whose parents are still undocumented, and yet their dropout rate is far less than the Blacks. Why? Is it the lack of role models? Why are female blacks increasinginly graduating from college and attending graduate school at a much higher rate than their brothers? Someone should be able to explain this to the satisfaction of those of us who are unsatisfied with the pat answers.

Alex--"Always interesting to see Bill pop in with another out-of-context comment in some weird attempt to discredit a pastor who ministers in the urban world."

Not out of context it all. It simply points out that though this fellow is new to you, he's very well known to lots of us, and has a reputation as a grandstander who is always saying outrageous things in an effort to attract attention. He and Wright (and Sharpton and Farrakhan) are all cut out of the same bolt of cloth. He speaks of peace, but threatened to "snuff out" a gun dealer--and then feigned ignorance, saying he didn't know "to snuff out" meant to murder. It's called, "consider the source." We don't need to look to folks like this as models for Adventist ministers.

The Problem is complex. It was their fellow Africans and Arabs that captured the slaves. It was the British, Spanish, and Americans that brought them to the Americas. It was the great divide of the Union. The slaves were freed to either return to their native land or carve out a new life in a “free America”. It wasn’t until MLK and LBJ that that opportunity became a possibility. However, by that time, the societal mix and housing ghettos had created their own negative ethos.

Opportunity and oppression is often in the eyes and hearts of the beholder.

The Medical College of Georgia had 50 black students enrolled while the University of Minnesota has three, yet the University of Minnesota received a large federal grant for its compliance with Civil Right legislation. It wasn’t until S. Nunn got me an audience with the head of the Federal Agency that, he even looked at the Georgia application. We then received the crumbs about $60,000. to a $150,000. grant application. The mind set was so focused that
Southern States were automatically written off the federal review.

Life is unfair, but it doesn’t have to be categorically unfair. That is the bottom-line of Rev. Wright’s argument. Of course, it carried a passion beyond present reality, but closer to the truth than most people are willing to admit.

Fox News would be the last place to look for balance and Rush Limbaugh for healing.

Few ever take to heart the inscription on the Statute of Liberty.
We should say it along with the Pledge of Allegiance each day.

That is Christianity. That is Patriotism. Tom

Once again, I'm still trying to figure out what Rev. Wright said that wasn't true - besides the conspiracy theory stuff. And even that isn't beyond rational thought, when other actual events in this country [such as the Tuskegee Experiment] are taken into account. I actually have a more difficult time understanding how people who consider themselves to be Christians can stomach the obvious bias in Fox (so-called) News.

I cannot easily put into words how uneasy and uncomfortable Cosby's diatribes [and his myriad white supporters] make me feel. A very good article discussing Cosby and his message can be found in the Atlantic, here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/cosby. It is lengthy, but it's important to read the entire thing. To sum up, the shortcomings of some of those in the black community cannot/should not be used to represent the whole group, neither should they be viewed as some new occurrence brought on by "gangsta rap" (the all too popular scapegoat). To the obvious chagrin of white Americans, slavery's effects are still felt today. The decimation of the black family and the placement of black males at the bottom of the social totem pole was engineered. It is no accident, then, that ramifications exist. The sad part is that the preacher above is in the minority. Most white people - Christians, even - are quite content to take the part of Fox, and many on this board, claiming the 'bootstraps' ideology.

I strongly encourage anyone who may have questions about race issues to do some research. To honestly soul-search about why they might feel so defensive when the topic arises. If you are not a person of color, your experience will be very different, and you may not readily be able to relate or understand to some of the issues. Finally, I will leave you with a link to a list of common understandings for those determined to commit to the eradication of racism. (because it's not enough to just not like it.) http://resistracism.wordpress.com/racism-101/

Alex, thanks for posting this video and allowing this conversation to continue. I hope that there may be some who gain perspective from it.
jen*

It IS the "conspiracy theory" stuff that gets to me! I haven't heard any good explanations for it. I haven't heard all of what Rev. Wright has to say, but the comment about the "government inventing HIV" is a big problem to me.

And if the New Yorker writer that I cited earlier is correct in saying, "he has a weakness for theories that match his sense of outrage but not the facts, as when he repeated the popular conspiracy theory that 'the government lied about inventing the H.I.V. virus as a means of genocide against people of color," then I think the pattern might have potential for disaster down the road. For example, if today it is the government that is erroneously and simplistically scapegoated for a serious problem then tomorrow couldn't it just as easily be the "common and vulgar immigrants" that Susan11 mentions in her (19 April 2008 at 9:36) post? And isn't that VERY dangerous?

Susan11, your post amply demonstrates true Christian grace and compassion. Thank you for your thoughtful style. In your dispassionate, analytical way, you logically answered Elaine's unreasonable and bigoted plea that, "Someone should be able to explain this to the satisfaction of those of us who are unsatisfied with the pat answers." (Oh, BTW, those Loma Linda folks are just behind the times, as ALL Adventists are--or at least the dumb, stupid white ones. They still think the Republican Party was the party of Lincoln and emancipation. They haven't yet heard how capitalism is what enslaves today, and how Democratic socialists will lead us to the new emancipation).

Bill, surely you have figured out by now that the left supports anyone who aligns with their worldview, regardless of motive or character? You're spitting in the wind... (but I'm glad someone swims against this sewage stream). It is interesting to see the "hate speech" the politically correct can spew out when their views are challenged.

Tabloid journalism, no doubt, but it is interesting that unlike OT prophets, Rev. Wright is reported to be retiring to a newly constructed 10,000 sq.ft. home. His message must have been effective in separating people from their money.

There is the bigotry of low expectations. This applies to many more than a racial group: the poor white mother who feels she is trapped and yet manages to get a college education; the very disadvantaged black youths who manage to also get a good education and improve their lives. Are they the exception? That is what should be asked and answered. Do terrible disadvantages limit your total life? It certainly hasn't for millions.

Women have been disadvantaged throughout the world's history, and trapped by their own lack of control over reproduction. I remember when boys in a family were deemed to need a college education, while the girls did not. Once this was removed, they could not be stopped--demonstrating that centuries, even millennia of being second-class citizens did not forever limit them. No one has yet explained why black females represent far larger percentage of college students than black males. What is the answer? They were disadvantaged both by sex and race, and yet they have shown what they are capable of doing. Some of us clearly don't understand, so please enlighten us from the Black perspective.

I am not unaware of the black ghettos in most big cities; I was in LA when the riots of the mid-60s broke out; I lived in the South when civil rights' workers were lynched; and before that when many blacks were lynched, so no one needs to preach to this choir of one. What I'm asking is: how many generations away from slavery can the great-great-grandchildren claim that as an excuse for their lack of taking advantage of what this country offers? Millions cross our borders every year to simply be given an opportunity to work and better themselves; while citizens who have been here for several hundred years are still crying about the effects of slavery. Yes, slavery is an abomination, but it hasn't been in effect for more than a hundred years. When will that cease to be blamed for highschool dropouts, teen parenting, and more. It is not bigotry to point out what are well known facts in our world today. Please explain why any one group is much more at a disadvantage educationally than any others?

Is Bill Cosby wrong? White are often accused of blaming the Blacks, and when one of their own calls attention to the problem then what?

Wow--nothing like a conversation about race to get the pot stirred up. There are a few new names here who I haven't seen before--glad you're joining the conversation; however, I'd like to make a plea for a bit more civilized discourse from Ken and Susan11 or it's going to be hard to even take the time to read your comments in the future.

Adrian, you said that, "It IS the "conspiracy theory" stuff that gets to me!" I'm just curious how you'd imagine a good 'ol fashioned Adventist Revelations seminar would sound to someone who wasn't familiar with the genre. I can imagine it sounding an awful lot like hate speech to say, a Catholic? I was just at a family member's church when the elder calling for offering made some remark about an event in the news fulfilling Ellen White's prophecies on the Sunday law and the end of times. To the uninitiated (and even to my ears) this could easily sound just completely paranoid and ridiculous not to mention bigoted.

Elaine--you really have surprised me on this post. I've come to expect your comments to be informed by your wide reading. You seem to have read one text in this conversation: Bill Cosby.

Did you see my earlier post about white privilege and institutionalized racism? That's no small matter. Of course we can't also get caught in the equally racist attitude of low expectations, but there are still very large societal injustices that happen on a daily basis. Here's an example I heard today. Because of the housing implosion, hundreds of banks are in big trouble. One of the ways they're dealing with this is to tighten restrictions on student loans, historically a riskier loan on paper (although not in reality since they're federally backed). Several banks are stopping their loan programs for community college students (typically lower SES students of color) since they're considered higher risk than other students.

Jen/Shygirl--thanks so much for expanding the conversation. I'm planning on checking out those links when it's not quite so late!

Daneen, I'm not clear on what you are trying to tell me.

Isn't what you were talking about paranoid, ridiculous, and backwards?
I don't hear such talk on the La Sierra campus- in the classrooms or the worship services, and I guessed it was because such ideas are the kind of ideas that leave the door open for things like racism and homophobia in the first place?
Maybe I'm being naive but please help me understand, I'm thinking: regardless of the ideology that the ideas appear to advance, shouldn't we always strive to get as close as we can to the Truth? And if we don't, aren't we as a society forever at the mercy of those individuals who happen to be a little more charismatic or charming than the average person- the Charlie Mansons or Chairman Maos of the world?
If Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Cornell West, Gandhi, or any other intellectual made such a remark wouldn't he or she be challenged? I'm uncomfortable with the idea that anyone can get a blank check on what they say simply because they are part of the clergy.

Yes, what I'm talking about is paranoid, ridiculous, and backwards. (As the Reverend in this clip pointed out, one or two lines that Jesus said looped over and over out of context would also sound ridiculous and even mad.) I'll wager that some of the Adventist pastors whom I've come to admire probably at one point in their career (even if it was just a seminary requirement) gave a sermon that included some Adventist eschatology speak that we might all cringe at, especially if it just had snips of it looped endlessly on youtube.

I did not hear the entire sermon that you're referring to (the HIV/AIDS one), so I don't know what the whole piece was about. But Jen points out that in light of Tuskegee, even that claim isn't really that far-fetched in the minds of some. As a reminder, 400 black men were in a government-run experiment for 40 years in which they were told they were getting treatment for "bad blood", but in reality they were just being allowed to die from syphilis so doctors could watch the disease run its course--they weren't ever even told they had syphilis. That experiment ended in 1972, which isn't all that long ago.

I guess I'm arguing for context and a little grace. Sitting here in CA, I can't know the context of Rev. Wright's congregation--what were the realities of that neighborhood? Of the lives of the congregants? I know Wright is praised for his work for the poor and destitute, putting his ethic of the social Gospel into practice. That alone makes me want to be a little less hasty to judge. Even Mike Huckabee made that plea (saying he was probably the only conservative in America who was going to be on record making that plea).

As the the context of the sermons themselves, I doubt many people have taken the time to watch the fuller clips that are now available. Have you watched the one linked to above? It's the full context of the "God Damn America" line that got endless replay. In context, that line is one I would have been comfortable hearing in church--well, not comfortable, as comfort was not the point of the sermon. I would have felt confronted, called upon, reminded of God's priorities.

It's just six minutes long:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw&feature=related

What's your reaction to seeing that line in a bit more context?

If the issue being discussed is racial, and one wants to appeal doesnt the rule go, you get more flies with honey?

Does the Rev. expect to change whatever he percieves the problems to be by riling up the congregation to have their actions mirror his retoric?

I went to the website at the top of the artical.
http://www.saintsabina.org
I thought it was pretty good. As I scrolled down a particular section caught my eye.
STOP RAPPER NAS
The N-Word Shows it's ugly head again!
Please call your local entertainment company and tell them to stop NAS!

I know what a rapper is and I know what the N word is, but I read it. What the PDF contained showed how screwed up things are getting.
It starts out:
"The rapper Nas has seemingly chosen to title his new cd to be released in the month of February, which is black history month. We are asking stores to refuse to stock the cd, radio stations to refuse to play it and consumers to refuse to purchase it."
OK, I can understand that. Even support it. I read on.

"Nas may have the legal right to put out such a cd, but he has obviously failed in his moral responsibility. With nooses showing up around the country and racism raising its ugly head every day, artists like Nas give a license for society to practice such racist behavior, because of their disrespect."

I was not aware their were nooses all around the country being used. Fault of the press or inflamitory retoric? I began to doubt the press are responsible because a noose incident would make bigger news than the patetic interview that press guy made.

I read more.
"It is probable that "n...." is the phonetic spelling of the white Southern mispronunciation of the word Negro. By
the early 1800's the word "n....." was firmly established as a degenerative nickname for African Americans."

Good thing the paragraph starts out with the word probable since they obviously have no idea of the words origin in english.(Diffrent subject)
They speak of the ordeals their great great great grandparents went through but, here is the part where they finally have to admit where the problem ACTUALLY is today and this part is what Bill Cosby is speaking of.

"The word "n...." has been sustained by a generation who was not exposed to the use of the word in its most degrading form. White racists succeeded in leaving a practice of hatred that they no longer have to impose upon Blacks, rather, blacks impose this type of hatred upon themselves. The African American youth now think it is cool to use the word "n....." much to the dismay of the elders in the community. The very people who fought to be called by their names and be treated as equal citizens under the law cannot understand how the word "n......" has been allowed to survive among the very people it was intended to be used against."

This is a black inter-generational problem, not a white-black problem. This is again what Bill has been refering too.
It can be quantified. How many racial murders are their compared with black on black murders? Gang related, drug related, inner city, ghetto, husband wife, boyfriend, girlfriend ect?

Blacks may fairly blame white peoples ancestors for what their ancestors went through but even the bible says that the sins of the fathers shall only pass on to the sons until the 3rd or 4th generation.

Its been at least that long.

Daneen, I did see the video you posted and to be honest even before I saw it I never really had any problems with most of the things I heard from Rev. Wright on the news anyway.
But isn't it true that you admire the pastors you mentioned because they would have since recanted those original statements?
At an Easter service earlier, Trinity church members were given a call to flood the churches main online communication outlets with positive comments. The pastor said, "We want you to be our foot soldiers in cyberspace." So given the fact that the congregation has been on the offense for a while, it seems that they would have had enough time to get the "HIV comment" vindicated. And I almost hope that someone does have a convincing explanation. But until then, how should one talk about Rev. Wright's HIV comment? I'll always wonder what other shocking revelations will come out about what he said. And the Tucker Carlson's out there will always have an argument up their sleeves that they can use to dismiss Rev. Wright as a complete lunatic and they might be able to present his supporters in similar light. And pointing out that neither Tucker or I have the complete context doesn't seem that convincing. Before rushing to his defense shouldn't people try to get all the info and all the explanations?

Can somebody stop this kind of verbal slandering that is going on here? At the risk of now being branded a 'racist,' for speaking up, this lowering of public discourse to name calling and insult slinging should be addressed.

Thanks...

Frank

Just to establish that I'm an Asian who lives near Loma Linda. It seems to me this entire discussion misses the chance to point out that the entire Rev. Wright controversy arises from the assumption (most famously stated by Sen. Clinton) that a person can choose his or her church and pastor, and therefore a lay member agrees with his/her pastor's comments. That would certainly not apply within the Adventist world and probably should not occur in Christianity if one understands "church" to be a community of sinners who form a community to support one another and worship God. If that is why one commits to a given church community, then it might not much matter what the rhetoric of a preacher (or the style of its worship music or even the theological proclivities of its members) whether one remains a member. There are probably good reasons God might call a Christian to worship with and fellowship with people who do not think like, believe like or look like one's self. If we are willing to accept Sen. Obama's statements about his Christian experience at face value (and I do as I also accept the testamonies of their faith from President Clinton, Sen. Clinton, President Bush or Gov. Huckabee), one might even wonder if the only way God could have won him was through a church like the one he attends.

I'd like to remind everyone, especially Susan11, of the comment guidelines. If these guidelines aren't followed, comments may be removed. It's absolutely encouraged to engage in discussion--even heated discussions about issues, but personal insults and attacks do nothing to further the conversation, only to discredit the commentor and diminish the possibility of real dialogue.

I happen to think that both Elaine and Susan (minus the invectives)have very valid points. To deal with Susan first:

The Adventist church was no different from any other white church prior to the 1960s--it was racist. Southern, my college, was integrated only three years before my arrival in 1973. My father-in-law, rather typical of his generation of Adventists, referred to blacks in the most demeaning way (but his kids did not!). Black conferences were established in the 1940s in response to a tragic incident in which a black woman died because the local SDA hospital refused to admit her. It has always been an abiding mystery to me, coming to this country from Norway (which awarded MLK the Nobel Prize in 1964), that religion and racism could coexist so closely, as it did in this country, especially in the South, where the KKK used local protestant clergymen as chaplains. (Just try to visualize a paunchy white southern preacher invoking God to bestow his blessings on the noble knights of the KKK before riding off to do their ungodly work.)

But I also appreciate where Elaine (and Cosby) is coming from. After college and grad-school, I moved back to Norway and returned only in 1999, to Richmond, Va, where I've been teaching in one of our de facto segregated "urban" high schools. More than 80 percent of my students are African-American from mostly poor background. I'm finishing my ninth year in my school and will go on to a tenth in the fall. It does not mean, Susan, that I've changed skin color or that I know much of anything about what life in the projects is like, but it has given me a front seat to an ongoing disaster taking place in the poorer part of the black community (the mistake so many people make is to assume that they are the black community).

Only fifty percent of every 9th grade cohort that feeds into Richmond's high schools (such as mine) graduate. Every day I come face to face with really nice, intelligent kids (yes, we have our share of thugs, but so do all high schools, and their presence explains very little) who are actively sabotaging their future by underperforming in school. And, as Elaine points out, it is to a large extent gender driven. I, also, would like to know why this is so. I have read Cosby's book, as well as Juan William's but find that they describe the problems we all see more than they analyze them, let alone offer solutions.

Susan, what do you think?

Susan,
I have unpublished all of your comments.

Please do not comment on our site any further.

Please contact us to discuss how you can be reinstated.
Thanks,
Johnny

contact us

Is anybody watching? Same song...same abusive statements, different guise?

Frank

Susan ("RevWrightSupporter?")
Try to be a bit more constructive. It's impossible to debate rant.

Dear readers,

We're being bombed by dozens of comments using more than one IP address originating from the same geographical area and same internet provider.

I'm going to disable commenting until I can sort it out.
Thanks,
Johnny

update

Our comment system is open, totally open, and we function under the assumption that our readers don't need moderation. I've re-enabled commenting.

Thank you all for your patience and for following the posted guidelines.
- Johnny

further update

To the anonymous person who continues to comment on this thread, you know who you are,
Your suggestion that an appropriate response would be to remove all comments and disable comments on this post altogether is not going to be followed.

The solution is for you to stop. Your comments are not welcome on this website.
Thank you,
Johnny

Final update

Relentless is the word to describe the person who won't identify themselves who is literally spamming our comment section.

Under our current system nothing short of disabling comments altogether can make it stop. The only other solution would be to require users to create an account on our websites in order to be able to comment.

Neither restriction is what we want to see happen. We also don't want to have to disable commenting on this particular post.

Hey guys - this is a strange way of trying to knock London of the top spot!

Sorry about the humour - I find it redemptive.

But seriously

There are many people in this big world who don't have the luxury of debate or democracy let alone dignity.

Spare them a thought.

ramirezistrash ...

How do you really feel about it?! If you call this site "conservative political" you must be from Mars...although I understand they speak intelligently in conversations.

pat

For all their faults, I think that churches, synagogues and temples are often very helpful precisely at this point because at their best they give young people faith, hope and love.

Far from trying to be clever, I say this with utmost seriousness.

Making it more possible for young people to have faith in themselves and others is one of the requisites of success. Having the hope that life can be better, that one's best efforts will receive their natural rewards and that what we do now will make a lasting difference is also necessary. Without love, without the sense that someone cares, without the certainty that we will be missed if we drop out, without those to whom we can turn when life gets very difficult, as it always does, very few can "make it."

In the United States today African American and Native American young men are the ones who are most at risk because they have been allowed the least amount of faith, hope and love.

This is not an accident. It is the result of three centuries of deeds that were deliberately designed to crush the noble spirits of these men.

The good news is that these efforts did not completely succeed and that there remains enough self-respect in the African American community for it now to come roaring back with the unmistable sights and sounds of recovered nobility.

Aage rightly mourns the academic loss of 50% of his students, most of whom are African Americans. That's the bad news, and it is terrible.

The good news is that 50% of these young people are graduating. Some of them will go to college. Some of them will go to graduate school or professional school. Some of them will invest their talents and trainig throughout the whole of their lives in service to others.

Let us not forget that the severest words of the Trinity United Church of Christ Church in Chicago are reserved for African Americans who do too little for others even though it was congregations like it that gave them the faith, hope and love with which they succeeded.

Some African Americans are angry and I think this is a good thing even though I wish they always expressed it ways that helped themselves and others, which is something I also wish for myself.

I would that there be was much fire in the bellies of Native American and Australian Aboriginal men. White people have been more successful in extinguishing it.

Yet those who have been ranting against Johnny A. and Elaine in this thread have missed their marks. This is very sad.

It brings to mind what Emil Brunner said after one of Karl Barth's angry outbursts: "He heard a noise in the dark and, thinking it was his enemy, he shot and killed his best friend."

How sad! How very, very sad!!

It's troubling to see the vitriolic tenor of a few of these comments. Attacking a person doesn't prove the anti-racist case that humans should strive for deeper understandings of each other.

We can't let a bad apple spoil the whole discussion, so we've had to delete one person who keeps repeating the same bromides. Perhaps the rest of us can salvage this topic.

I've been doing some deleting of comments, particularly since someone was stooping to attack others as trash.

We do have a policy of no personal attacks, as in calling someone trash. You are a guest here, the community expects better conversations. While one may now ascribe racism to my motivations, I'm happy to continue that conversation via email.

alexander[at]spectrummagazine[dot]org

We're going to take a risk and leave this post and commentary up. Most of you have been very civil and gracious. Let's get that back to 100%.

Wow, I've been following this all afternoon from my bed. It is, indeed, frustrating to see how much damage the anger of one person can do...how many people it can directly affect. If I were the one(s) who had to go through and spend hours deleting postings I, too, would want the whole posting taken down so I could get back to doing something more profitable in my life!!! How sad.

But, what happens if the entire post IS completely removed? Is there a chance that this would entice the same person, or others of similar intent, to use this method to shut down any other postings that they did not like? Could they not end up using intimidation to control this entire website? I don't know, but I think it is worth contemplating. It reminds me of our country’s stand to refuse to make deals with terrorists/rebels to free prisoners of war. Once it is started, where do you stop?

Wow - apparently I've missed a great deal of drama. I'm glad.

Adrian, I agree that the clergy should be responsible for their statements. My point is that Wright's comment was pulled from a popular urban legend that illustrates the government's track record with black people in America. IMO, most people in the congregation would have understood this. The sermon wasn't delivered for a national audience.

At the same time, I don't know Rev. Wright. He may actually believe what he said was based on fact.

In any case, the comment seems to have been much overshadowed by the 'God damn America' which people are misinterpreting as being unpatriotic. [not illegal, but clearly not well-received in these flag-and-yellow-ribbon-magnets-on-the-car times]

jen*

Bill,

In fact, snuff out has multiple meanings. Look the term up in a dictionary, in addition to "extinguish" it also means "get rid of," or "stamp out."

In this world of media manufactured "-gate" gotcha moments I've just found it helpful to ask if the broad contexts of a speech or a life mitigate misguided assessments of fellow humans. We followers of Christ and readers of the Bible can show the world something better than using single phrases to discredit those with whom we disagree?

You know, something tells me that this priest wasn't really asking his parishioners to kill gun dealers. : )

I've noticed this error a lot this political season -- all candidates' surrogates have done it - this tendency to take phrases or just one word, pick one of multiple connotations and then use that optional interpretation to attack or claim offense.

Do you really think that he was advocating (what's the totality of evidence here?) that the mothers and children in his audience become murders, especially since he has a history as a non-violence activist?

Well, now that my posting is up, I see that the previous posting, the one that I was responding to, has since been removed. The writer was suggesting that this entire section be removed.

I'd like to thank all of you who are working so hard to keep this website free from "trash" talking and open still to comments from those who genuinely enjoy dialoging with fellow Christians! There are a whole lot of us out here who really appreciate all of your work!

Shygirlj,

Aren't the Tuskegee experiments and Rev. Wrights assertion two very different things? If that's what you were referring to when you said "the government's track record."-->In one instance a group of people is exploited in another instance a weapon that kills millions of people of all colors is being unleashed.

How can we be certain that the congregation would have understood it the way you say they would? I took another look at the footage and it really didn't seem like that. Furthermore, isn't Trinity a large mega church with people from all different backgrounds?
I don't want to cast Rev. Wright in false light. But how is this one particular urban myth any different than the ideas put forward by 9-11 Truth Movement who believe that the WTC attacks were government orchestrated? And aren't well-meaning activists discredited when they ally themselves with such movements?

Certainly unfortunate the spammer was so abrasive.
I speculated before this happened about the dangers of the Rev's followers conforming their actions/words to match his inflated retoric.

Many times one can look and see who is rallying around whatever a person may be saying. If the Rev's retoric appeals to Susan it is indeed disturbing if it manifests as we have seen. The lament is how many tens of thousands that ranting person may represent.

Certainly it must be obvious even to Susan, that she wasnt making friends and influencing others, at least positively.

Adrian James is correct when he said, "And aren't well-meaning activists discredited when they ally themselves with such movements?"

It occurs to me that there is not much "Ghandi or MLK" in the toolbox of todays Black leadership. MLK was appealing and sympathetic across racial lines by espousing a positive message. At least that has always been my impression.

Its interesting to note that there is a national MLK day but not a Malcom X, or black panthers day, huh?

Perhaps a showing of Bambi next Sun morning........

While I reject the personal attacks by "Susan," I personally don't want to allow poor communication to obscure good messages about the racism that often lies beyond my current awareness. I always want to be open to better ways of including more into full participation in the body of Christ and the body politic.

Having played moderator all day yesterday today I relish the opportunity to throw in my own thoughts. And I for one would like to see this thread redeemed beyond that disruptive interlude.

I want to expand on my tongue-in-cheek reply to Bill Cork which referenced Psalms of lament like the third Psalm. That particular Psalm was a personal lament. There are many other such Psalms which were read in royal courts and temples. They include, among other things, harsh and violent language like dashing infants on rocks.

These Psalms are an expression of redirection. They take the anger of the Psalmist, express it verbally, and pass it on to God. I would argue that the African American church, particularly in its spirituals, echoes the function and rhetoric of those Old Testament Psalms.

Spirituals acknowledge the injustice faced by slaves yet also squarely places on God a belief in ultimate justice and redemption. These spirituals are filled with visual lyrics many of which are drawn directly from Old Testament stories themselves.

One book which I have enjoyed is Deep River and The Negro Spiritual Speaks of Life and Death by Howard Thurman. I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand Rev. Wright. The following spiritual is in page 13 and 14 of that book.

Go Down Moses

When Israel was in Egypt's land,
Let my people go;
Oppressed so hard they could not stand,
Let my people go;

Refrain:
Go down, Moses, 'way down in Egypt land,
Tell ole Pharaoh
Let my people go.

"Thus saith the Lord," bold Moses said,
Let my people go;
If not, I'll smite your first-born dead,
Let my people go.

No more shall they in bondage toil,
Let my people go;
Let them come out with Egypt's spoil,
Let my people go.

The Lord told Moses what to do,
Let my people go;
To lead the children of Israel thro'
Let my people go.

When they had reached the other shore,
Let my people go;
They sang a song of triumph o'er,
Let my people go.

Spirituals, like Rev. Wrights sermon, were seen by slave owners as threatening. And they were. Not only was hope important but many spirituals, like Wade In The Water were sung to help slaves as they escaped to avoid capture.

It is a huge mistake to take a single phrase by Rev. Wright out of context and pretend to derive meaning from said isolated phrase. I submit that the dashing of infants on rocks present in Psalm 137 and Go Down Moses should be seen as offensive as other comments by Rev. Wright.

I think that pretending to separate "metaphorical" and "literal" calls within such Psalms miss the point entirely. The question is not if it is just for God to kill American White slave owner or Babylonian babies but rather to say that this anger, this justice we claim as ours, we give to the Lord. Yes, Psalm 137 is a peaceful Psalm as is Go Down Moses.

'Violent' imagery is central also to Christ and His mission. One other book in addition to Howard Thurman's which is so important to me that it travelled with me to Scotland despite not being part of my subject area is Stride Toward Freedom by Martin Luther King. In the second chapter he addresses the notion that as their language or even activity disrupts the peace it is not Godly or Christian. From page 25-27:

I went on to speculate that this was what Jesus meant when he said: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." Certainly Jesus did not mean that he came to bring a physical sword. He seems to have been saying in substance: "I have not come to bring this old negative peace with its deadening passivity. I have come to lash out against such a peace. Whenever I come, a conflict is precipitated between the old and the new. Whenever I come, a division sets in between justice and injustice. I have come to bring a positive peace which is the presence of justice, love, yea, even the Kingdom of God.
The racial peace which had existed in Montgomery was not a Christian peace. It was a pagan peace and it had been bought at too great a price.

...[the next few paragraphs detail the previously compliant nature of African Americans to white discrimination on busses in Montgomery]...

The long repressed feelings of resentment on the part of the Negroes had begun to stir. The fear and apathy which had for so long cast a shadow on the life of the Negro were gradually fading before a new spirit of courage and self-respect... supported by the longings and aspirations of nearly 50,000 people, tired people who had come to see that it is ultimately more honourable to walk the streets in dignity than ride the busses in humiliation.

What we're confronted with is justice which upsets "peace", a peace which never was, and a Christ who has come to upset established orders of this world. What you're hearing folks is not only prophetic, it's Biblical. It's not hate speech, it's Godly speech. Not only is it Godly, it's American.

I already posted this Langston Hugues poem but I want to post it again. Rev. Wright stands in a proud tradition of African American Christians who speak truth to the very power which stands as one beacon of hope.

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath --
America will be!

Thanks for this post, and the link to the MLK speech.
As an Adventist pastor, I share the frustration expressed that we don't talk like these men (Pfleger and MLK) more often...

Thanks Johnny.

That's the sort of substantive elevation of the issue that reveals deep care for country and the power of hope to turn differences into opportunities for connection and redemption.