Disgusting.

Well at least he was plugging 'Desire of Ages' . . . and all the while Adolf looking from his picture on his day of birth.
Tony Zirkle should have thought this one out a bit more. It is one thing to speak at an organizational event; it is another thing when that event is sponsored by a subversive, hate mongering, extremist group.
Evangelizing your faith is admirable, but having the clarity and decision-making skills to recognize that speaking at certain events when those events are sponsored by extremist groups there has to be conditions.
Conditions:
1. No Hitler photo behind me.
2. No Nazi symbols.
3. No Nazi dress.
4. No hate speech while speaker is present.

What is the intrinsic difference between a master race and a "final generation"? Tom

Here's the really weird thing (okay, several weird things):

1. I know Tony Zirkle. I went to seminary with his wife. He was taking classes as the same time as you can see by his vitae.

2. We attended church with he and his wife in South Bend, Indiana for two years while we were students at Andrews. For quite a number of months we went to he Zirkle's home weekly for our small group.

3. His wife is a Jew. She's an Adventist now, but ethnically she's Jewish and converted to Adventism. I wonder how she feels about her husband speaking to those haters?

Tony was always way more conservative than the rest of us, but I had no idea.... I really feel sorry for his wife. I also feel deeply saddened by the wrong conclusions that people will reach about Adventism due to his "witness."

Being part of a master race is based on factors beyond a person's control, and therefore fundamentally not fair since it's not based to a persons character, decisions, and what they do. Being part of a "final (saved) generation" is all about the choices one makes to right one's self with God and his principles. Participation in that "final (saved) generation" is by choice and open to everyone, so it is fair. Hopefully I understood what you meant by "final generation".

Wow--you're right. Words almost fail me. It's more than a lapse in judgement to talk in front of a Hitler poster to a room full of "men" with their swastika armbands on.

I read through his website--it has a very simplistic and even patriarchal tone. It's beyond embarrassing to think he's out there "witnessing." The Republican party has denounced him--we need our leadership and his local church to seriously address this.

In a weird way, this reminds me of the paper I read concerning the complicity of the Adventist church with the Nazi government in Germany, before and during WWII. Some of their involvement was connected to Hitler's vision of national health reform for Germany. The church administration felt that this could be a bridge between the church and the party. The church administration was then seemingly sucked into the vortex. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!

Another one of those myth busting moments for me...

Thanks...

Frank

BTW,

The paper was largely focused on the church administration in Germany. I don't remember how much connection was made to the GC.

Frank

What does Andrews University have to say about all of this? Has he been asked to explain his actions and views? There is no room for compromise on this issue.

I can't help but believe that if this Tony was preaching and witnessing about the real Kingdom of God, as Jesus taught, he would not be invited to speak at a Nazi rally. The invitation itself is pretty incriminating.

You know guys...it's funny how we preach so much about Jesus eating with the tax collectors and sinners, etc. but then are quick to condemn this man for assembling with and speaking to neo-Nazi's and offering them The Desire of Ages. If he went to a brothel full of prostitutes and pimps and offered Desire of Ages to them he would be hailed as loving, non-judgmental person seeking to share the gospel with all. But if he goes and speaks to Nazi's he's condemned. I can't help but think that this has something to do with the following fact: Racism is a sin condemned by our society (i.e. unpopular sin) and sexual immorality is a sin celebrated by our society (i.e. popular sin). Could all our talk of rubbing elbows with the sinners be more about conformity to the world than really trying to save sinners? Wonder if Jesus would have come and spoke to them if invited...or were they too undesirable for him? He might need some more socially acceptable sinners...

This is over-the-top sad, and it tarnishes the face of Adventism.

How does Matthew 18 figure in to a scenario like this? Surely no one is so "liberal" as to think this should go unremarked in Tony's local congregation. But it's important to remember, too, that Matthew 18 puts church discipline directly in the context of forgiveness.

In this case, working all that out would be a complicated dance. But the dance floor beckons. Tony (I do not know him) is a brother.

Perhaps the most "obscene" aspect is that it is not an "individual" visiting trying to communicate a better understanding of Christ. It is a "politician" speaking to them who is seeking their vote.

I personally would prefer not to have the backing of certain political causes/groups such as this one.

Frank, your observation is good concerning Nazi Germany and the SDA church as well as other churches and the "German Church" who were drawn to Hitler's social agenda of change and prosperity.

Mixing political,social,religious,economic agendas will always be a clear and "present" danger that risk alliances that risks undermining the true mission of the "church."

pat

Good point, B. Jones. Maybe the Nazi group had invited Tony to speak on loving those that are the outcasts or the despised. Maybe he was to speak on how God's love and forgiveness extends to all regardless of class, gender or ethnicity.

"Christian" folks across the country seemed quick enough to denounce Jeremiah Wright for supposedly racist remarks (they weren't), and yet we are called to compassion for white people who espouse racist propaganda, by both content and context of their words?

Your points are worth considering, B., for about five seconds, and then the distinctions between socializing with racists (the perpetrators of violence) and socializing with prostitutes (the victims of violent social systems) becomes clear. About two seconds after that, the hypocrisy of seeking to understand where people are coming from only when they are white people and never when they are people of color becomes evident.

Sorry, but the inability to call a swastika a swastika seems to be the heart of what blocks Christ's good news from reaching the ears that need it most.

B. Jones, I wondered how long it would take for someone to raise your comparison. But I wonder if there are more ethical principles involved than "both are unpopular?"

You'll, of course, recall that Jesus didn't have a public scroll full of prostitution or tax collector-related rantings. There is a difference between being there to hand out The Desire of Ages, and being a counter-cultural witness. Remember that salt and light actually change the experience.

If Zirkle had said, "best book," because it shows a Christ that relieves us of our race-rooted fears I'd buy it, but he tickled their ears with a classic of right-wing paranoia, "white, female, slavery and Jewish-owned pornography." To miss the distinction of message drops an argument for Christian/political tolerance back into reactionary relativism.

I have yet to see a statement by the Indiana conference or this gentlemans home church and wonder if they're aware of this gentleman. The Indiana Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

For reference, page 190 of the church manual says-

...no individual member or group of members should start a movement or form an organisation or seek to encourage a following for the attainment of any objective or for the teaching of any doctrine or message not in harmony with the fundamental religious objectives and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Such a course would result in the fostering of a factional and divisive spirit, in the fragmenting of the effort and witness of the church, and thus in hindering it in the discharge of its obligations to its Head and to the world.

Frankly I believe that Tony Zirkles actions are offensive and anti-ethical to what we stand for as a denomination and that he can wreck serious damage on both the unity of our church and its mission.

UPDATE:

I just got off the phone with the AU Public Relations office. Tony received his B.A. in '95 and is a few credits short of his M.Div. He has not taken classes at the seminary for several years. They will send over a statement from Andrews University President Niels-Erik Andreason in a bit, so stay tuned.

I believe to make a fair judgment as to whether Zirkle is pandering or actually trying to spread the Gospel one would have to listen to his entire talk. Has anyone done that?

From what I see there is widespread pandering in the media and even in the church. Because Wright is Black it's OK for him to be explosive and demeaning in his opinion of our great country. On the other hand no law enforcement officer better stop a minority and ask to search his vehicle without expecting rather widespread condemnation. If he stops two minorities he is guilty of profiling.

Nazism is despicable, about that there is no question. Is it legitimate to try and give them the gospel in their own venue? OTOH, if Zirkle is pandering pox on him.

Your Friend, reading your comment it appears that "pandering" and lack of patriotism is a worse error than white supremacy.

And look at that, you pine for racial profiling.

Let's be clear here. If someone raises the "but he might have been witnessing" argument the onus is on you to prove that your standards for witnessing go higher than waving a book.

This sort of sentiment exposes a fundamental problem with "get saved" witnessing. There is much more to the Christian walk than feeling better about ones past. We need to pay attention to our relationship with God AND fellow humanity.

UPDATE:

I just got off the phone with the Indiana Conference office. The president's admin. asst. had just been forwarded our story "35 seconds ago" and was reading this thread. She estimates a statement coming from the president tomorrow.

A Seventh-day Adventist lawyer and Republican candidate who advocates racism and Naziism? Something's very wrong with this picture, as it is totally incompatible with Christ-ianity. I'm not sure where his home church is, but as an SDA pastor who votes Republican, I know what I would do. I would try to counsel with him, but if he were to persist in holding these views, I would call a church business meeting and drop him from membership. This is a clear instance when church discipline is necessary

Nice work, people! You make the community organizers among us proud!

Well back in the day, Cliff Goldstein DID say that Nazism was a snugger fit with Christianity than evolution though this guy may have gotten a bit carried away and missed the point. I get the strange feeling that maybe Mr. Zirkle felt he would be better off fraternizing with these goodly gentlemen instead of the science faculty at Indiana University! (Which is why you probably want to take a nuanced approach to what you read.) But more seriously...Well if Obama really wants to find some bitter smalltown folk clinging to their guns and religion...

Has Tony actually read Desire of Ages? Somebody please help me understand how it is possible to read Desire of Ages, furthermore take seminary classes, and still believe in extreme right-wing politics. What keeps a person from connecting the dots?

Thanks Audrey for pointing out that it takes only about five seconds to see "the distinctions between socializing with racists (the perpetrators of violence) and socializing with prostitutes (the victims of violent social systems) becomes clear."

He clearly was pandering for votes and, as Dick pointed out, the fact that this white supremacist, anti-semitic group even thought he'd be a good fit to invite to speak at their "celebration of Hitler's birthday" is very telling. I'll be very curious to hear what Andrews and his conference have to say.

Monte,

Neo-Nazism could also be considered a form of "liberal facism" depending on how one develops one's political continuum and terminology and the degree of government involvment in society.

UPDATE:

STATEMENT FROM ANDREWS UNIVERSITY

"Tony Zirkle has not been a student of Andrews University since the fall of 2003. He does hold a BA in Religion and Economics (he was a double major) from Andrews University. He did not complete his MDiv."

Statement from Andrews University President Niels-Erik Andreasen

“While we value each alumnus of Andrews University, their views are not always our views, nor do their views always reflect the beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That is the case with Tony Zirkle."

Monte
You exclaim: "Has Tony actually read Desire of Ages? Somebody please help me understand how it is possible to read Desire of Ages, furthermore take seminary classes, and still believe in extreme right-wing politics. What keeps a person from connecting the dots?"

Exactly. I've been wondering for years how come segregation was virtually the franchise of Southern protestant churches. How is it possible that baptist ministers in the South could volunteer as chaplains for the KKK?

The closest I've come to an answer is that the New Testament does not specify any consequences for bad behavior, unless it be sexual in nature (Paul to the Corinthians). I would be surprised if anybody has been excommunicated for beating up and abusing their spouse or their children, because it is not on the list of punishable offenses. Racist offenses, likewise, are certainly discouraged (as is beating up your wife) in the New Testament, but no consequences are drawn up for those who offend. Human nature being what it is, admonitions are mom telling you to do something whereas consequences is dad getting out the belt.

The Adventist church, in reacting to bad behavior on the part of members, seems to have been guided more by fear of bad publicity than by a principle.

Aage Rendalen

A story way out of the past. Joe McCarthey was a graduate of Marquette University Law School. I was a junior instructor in the School of Dentistry. Joe decided to run for the U.S. Senate. During his campaign, the Communist Party of South Milwaukee endorsed his candidacy. One of MaCarthey's aides told Joe. Joe asked, "Does they vote count". Of course, the aide reply yes. Then Joe said: "Let them alone!" As we all know Joe won in a strong democratic state. Later Joe slammed General Marshall and the Marshall plan. Candidate Eisenhower shared the platform in Milwaukee with Joe while running for President. Marshall had "made" Eisenhower. But not a peep out of Eisenhower. Neither was there a peep out of the President of Marquette who was also a platform guest.

I a newly minted instructor pounding the floor of the dental clinic trying my best to prevent mal-practice by some neonate--couldn't keep my big mouth shut. I guess the thing that saved me was taking a leave to get an advanced degree at Northwestern. When I returned. The Senate has censored the Senator and he was toast. Then, everyone said, Tom we agreed with you all the time.

I think the President of Andrews did a beautiful cat walk on this one.

Tom

Well, since it was Hitler's birthday, I trust that Zirkle was served a vegetarian meal!

Seriously, this is embarrassing! But I do think that "sin pays its wage" and he'll reap the political consequences of his behavior without a rush to judgment on our parts. He may not be racist (I haven't seen anything besides the above videos); without talking to him or reading his writings, it isn't clear. Possibly he is guilty of "nothing more" than terribly poor judgment (amazing with all his degrees that he didn't pick up more wisdom) and pandering for votes (common to many politicians). As for the witnessing, it seems in the class of anti-papacy billboards.

So long as society continues to degrade, with the Left working hard to promote what many perceive as an anti-Christian, anti-family agenda, it isn't surprising that this man, or David Duke, or several other characters of their ilk, could achieve a degree of success in politics. As another commenter said, however, the responsibility lies as much with the profiteers on the Right. There is a need for a family-focused consensus that takes our society in a better direction, but I don't see it coming from either Right or Left.

Bob
Your reasoning seems to run a few 'whereas's' short of a valid conclusion.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that because people on the left, such as myself, would like to see gays and lesbians enjoy the same rights you and I have, it is not surprising that a conservative Republican should go pander to a group of Nazis celebrating Hitler's birthday.

Sounds like nonsense but maybe I'm missing something

Aage Rendalen

Keith Olberman tonight vacated the runner up spot on his 'Worst Person in the World' feature to make room for Tony Zirkle. He made no reference to his religious affiliation, which is only right, since it does not explain his course of action.

I myself used the term "master race" in a posting in connection with M.L. Andreasen's "last generation" fantasy, but that was a bit facetious on my part. Tom, since you brought this up higher up in the thread, let me say that I don't see how perfectionism could possibly lead to fascism. The reason why German Adventists voted overwhelmingly for Hitler's party, had more to do with Pauline advice to be subservient to the authorities (and Luther's two regimes doctrine) than perfectionism--a doctrine that has never been popular with European Adventists, marinated as they are in Protestant thinking.

What could lead to fascism is social darwinism, the favorite ideology of talk radio. (I find it fascinating that people who are on the barricades to fight darwinism in biology, often are the very ones who advocate it as political philosophy.)

Aage Rendalen

This guy popped up on my radar a couple months ago when I saw this: http://www.stereohyped.com/one-political-candidates-bright-idea-20080304...
which linked to a (now archived) article at the South Bend Tribune (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/southbendtribune/access/1448782851.html?dids...)

At the time I thought he was a crackpot - maybe doing it for publicity. I had no idea he was tied to our church. What a shame. In the sense that he is shameful.

I'm just disgusted.
jen*

Oh, Aage. Great point about social darwinism. That's something I just don't get. I'm not an evolutionist - but then I'm also not one for social darwinism either. It is surprising how many right-wing-minded people are pulled into the rhetoric, considering their usual arguments are tied to the Bible. Because the social aspect is more diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus, but it [oddly] allows for the maintaining of the status quo (in that those in power, remain in power, or increase in power, while Others are 'naturally selected' out).

jen*

The issue I have here is not to defend this man's actions or views (whatever they may be) but his right to have them (and to run for political office and be a part of whatever church he wants). I'm concerned that this country is increasingly becoming a police state, with the media instead of the cops being the enforcers of acceptable dogma. I find this mentality disturbing. Just on this blog you have a pastor who says he would use church discipline on this guy (under what charge Biblically?) and a phone drive being promoted to call the conference (and what are they supposed to do?) It's too bad that many on this blog seem to think that poor taste is a reason to impose church discipline. Friends...I may not agree with you, but I will defend your right to think differently than me and everybody else. I'm a pastor, and the only way I'll discipline you in my church is for open, rebellious, unrepented of sin...not for wrong opinions. That sets a very dangerous precedent, and considering our end time insights we as SDA's should know that.

Ah, B. Jones, a pastor who labels racism as merely "poor taste." But hey, he's against "open" sin. Whew! Or perhaps there's private over public relativism in action.

Now, I'm personally opposed to any kind of "phone in," regarding church membership. In fact, I'm hopeful that under the right kind of pastoral/community care, our brother Tony could change.

As my girlfriend pointed out, Tony's economic policies favor the middle class against the Bush tax cuts for billionaires. Do you realize that the top 50 hedge fund mangers made 29 billion in 2007 for themselves, often at the expense of low and middle-income homeowners?

What is the real issue here? In this, B. Jones gets close. Yes, some in the media, to sell advertising, provides the folk the often unconscious thrill of the distant denigration of others. This, while most humans suffer through the real exploitative horror of economic racism and a market morality of me-first.

The strategy of a political campaign is to get your name known. Spelled right and your picture in the paper. How many column inches has this guy gotten out of one little old talk? Maybe that was Zirkle's ploy? Nothing less makes sense. Aren't we glad he is not still in the Navy? Or the seminary? Tom

On the other hand, he said, maybe it could also save the costs of the crime rate — and reduce claims of racial profiling. Granted, he said, it could take a century for the move to really fall in place.

So how would you divvy up Hispanics?

You can pretty much lump them in with whites, he says.

What about black Latinos whose black roots go back several generations in Latin America? And what about the ever-growing number of mixed races?

“You’d have to let people declare what culture they want to be living in,” Zirkle said.
h/t Jen for the link

Zirkle is explaining how his vision of segregation would play out.

I agree, as a pastor, I wouldn't want people phoning in to express their opinion about whether one of my members should be disciplined, but the association could be devastating to the church. I would immediately issue a statement that his views are totally out of line with those of the church. We did the same thing with the Waco disaster. Distance ourselves for damage control. This is not nearly as destructive as Waco (yet?) but public opinion is not easily regained after something crazy like this.

I think Alexander is making a good point in the last comment. We have totally privatized and domesticated views about what sin is and what lostness is and what is valued as "salvation." How can it be a sin to look at pornography (admitly very damaging to a person psyche and more so to the person who is on display as an object rather than a person), but racism and misogyny is just a matter of personal opinion? We need to be converted!

Re: police state. He has a right to say whatever he wants. But I also have a right to be disgusted and take steps to fend off any negative associations people might draw about me and my congregation.

Disfellowshiping is serious business. While membership is a world-wide fellowship: dismissal is for cause as determined against denominational standards but by the local affiliate. (Those who should know the situation the best.) I certainly would disassociate myself from Zirkle's world view as the short clip revealed. But the Southern Colifornia Conference is about to spend a million dollars to hopefully gather in about 1000 souls. Why not spend a little time and money on Zirkle? Let us at least make an effort to understand him. His overt behavior certainly was questionable. A mistake or a calculated decision--we ought to know before anyone takes action, beyond expression of strong disagreement. Tom

Let me preach to the choir for a minute.

The Adventist church in the past has had no compunction about expelling people for ideological offenses, provided they have been offenses against the creed and not against common decency.

Nobody. to my knowledge, has ever been expelled for being racists and antisemites (I've met both types in the church). But decent, moral people, like Desmond Ford, have often been forced out or attempted forced out, for merely having questioned denominational orthodoxy (--and that in areas where the church obviously was wrong).

Question: Is the investigative judgment more crucial to the church than compliance with commonly held ethical standards? Is it more important to be right than to be moral?

So do you gents think he should be disciplined by the church? How about his political views officially denounced?
Here's another angle at my view...Our church is in the salvation business, not the political business. That's why we don't endorse candidates, take official stances on political issues, etc. The trouble I have here is that many of you here are crossing that line and wanting official denouncement and discipline for views that are political. It is important to clarify just what this guy has done. He spoke to nazi's about the evils of porn and suggested that social ills in the black community might justify a re-segregation of the US. While I do not agree with these sentiments, what he has done and said does not fall under a biblical definition of sin that requires church discipline. We have 28 fundamentals...any views you have above and beyond that is your business. We have a moral code of behavior derived from Scripture...anything you do above and beyond that is your business. I'm amazed that you guys want to use the SDA church to punish and denounce people for their political views. So...what do you think the church should do (local and conference)?

One consideration for the local church of his to consider.
He has "indirectly involved" the SDA church in this video by broadcasting the book...regardless of his intentions.

At minimum, as a politician, he must be advised to keep his "public" political and religious views separate unless specifically stating they do not necessarily represent the church to which he belongs.

Otherwise, he indirectly effects us all as members in the publics mind. Aside from discipline (when necessary) for the ultimate purpose of reclaiming the disciplined person, I suggest that another consideration is to appear to be an upholder of purity in society for public perception.

pat

The idea that views about re-segregation are merely political and has nothing to do with salvation or theology, betrays a false dichotomy between the sacred and the secular. To say that it is not sin reaveals the same thinking.

Paul publicly confronted Peter, telling him that he was not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, when he helped lead Jewish walk out on the Gentile believers in Antioch. It was an action that was undermining the reality of the gospel that there is neither Jew nor Greek...but all are one in Christ Jesus. IOW, Peter's actions were sinful.

To say that this only matters in the sphere of church life, but not in the public policy that a high profile chuch member is advocating, is again a false division between the sacred and the secular. Zirkle is publicly advocating a racial policy to a group of hate-mongers that misrepresents God, the gospel, and the church he claims to represent. He, at least, needs to be confronted like Peter was.

Hopefully, he will respond as Peter responded.

Thanks...

Frank

Here's my point that many here seem to be missing. The question I'm raising is, "Does Tony have the right to speak to whoever he wants to and to discuss unpopular political views and still be an SDA?" The feel I'm getting on this blog is, "NO!" (at least not one that goes unpunished). I believe the answer is, "Yes!" I seem to be more concerned about freedom and you guys more about orthodoxy (political orthodoxy I might add).

B. Jones--I'm completely shocked that you would consider blatant racism and anti-semitic policies to be merely "unpopular political views"!. You say above: "It is important to clarify just what this guy has done. He spoke to nazi's about the evils of porn and suggested that social ills in the black community might justify a re-segregation of the US."

Wow--just racial supremacy and racial segregation...somehow those aren't actually sins to you?

This seems to reveal the danger of Biblical literalism--if a sin isn't mentioned by name in the Bible, then it's someone's personal right to pursue it wholeheartedly. By your definition, slave-owning would be perfectly permissible since the culture in which the Bible was written felt that was normal and necessary. This approach pigeonholes the Bible and allows for irresponsible applications to modern day issues like racism, sexism, and other social ills that weren't addressed in Biblical times. This is why David Larson's discussion of the importance of looking at the trajectory of the Bible, especially when it comes to how we treat people, seems so crucial.

SO what do you think should happen to him Daneen?

Since I don't know him personally, and since I have only seen what is undoubtedly part of the story, I wouldn't venture to say. I do think his local church and conference needs to address his actions and publicly stated views both with him and the public (and possibly not in that order). I'm glad that membership is held at the local level; that keeps local responsibility center. What will be disappointing is if his pastor says, "Well, just be careful with those unpopular political views being taped in front of giant posters of Hitler and swastikas," instead of taking the time to talk about how the Bible and Jesus' example speak directly against those views (and I'd say, sins). Repentance and discipleship is needed on Zirle's part at a minimum; dismissal should be considered by his church.

B. Jones,
I did write to the conference saying "Certainly this situation calls for careful consideration. I ask that you and Zirkle's home church consider, and respond to, the recent activities of Tony Zirkle. You can read more about his activities at [link to this post]"

I agree that if they aren't aware of the situation, and apparently within an hour of my email being sent they were looking at our website, that they should be. It is one thing to suggest that a response is necessary and another to interlope into the business of a church and its member. Ryan Bell is spot on in his suggestions.

I don't envy the pastor of Tony Zirkles home church! This is definitely not going to be an easy situation for them. They have my prayers, as does Tony himself.

Reasonable response to my question Dan. Allow me to play devil's advocate here. Suppose you're his local pastor and you go to him and express concerns and he says says, "I went and talked with the Nazis because I'll speak to anyone who invites me. I offered them Desire of Ages cause they need to learn the love of Jesus. About my segregation statement, I feel that we live in a sinful world and racial division is one of the tragic effects of that. I don't like it but I do recognize it and simply suggested that racial separation would solve some of the ills in our society." Now I'm just throwing words in his mouth but I'm just curious what would the response (from a disciplinary point of view). Does that statement (that I put in his mouth) justify church discipline?

PS - let me make clear that I'm not expressing my views (on the racism issue) but am seeking to take the debate to a higher level of freedom, orthodoxy, and church/state relations in our church.

PPS - I'd really like to hear someone answer the question, "what should be done to him. Should he face church discipline?"

This idea that the our faith says nothing about our politics (small "p") is something I hardly know how to relate to anymore. Politics is about the social structures of our lives and communities. It's not about partisan politics. Anyway, it's been a dozen years or so since I've been able to maintain that dualism in my mind.

As a potential policy maker, he would need to be confronted about his stance on segregation. As I said above, Paul confronted Peter on the very same issue. In fact, much of the NT addresses the problem of religio-racism. Just because Tony Zirkle's activity is in the so called public sphere, and not within the ecclesiastical, doesn't change the gravity of the situation.

In fact, his case is more pressing than someone who simply holds a private view. We are all free to hold private views on a number of issues. But Tony Zirkle has gone widely public. He is publicly advocating segregation. If elected to Congress, he would have authority and power to try and enact such legislation. It doesn't matter what the reason, it is incongrous with the gospel. And it is a public misrepresentation of God, the gospel and the church. It is also a blatant and public misuse of gospel freedom...as Paul wrote in Galatians, "...do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh..." Paul is speaking in the context of religio-racial division, IOW you've been set free to love, but not to put up walls of bigotry again. This is far beyond an articulation of unpopular political views...it strikes at the very heart of the gospel itself.

What should be done? Loving confrontation and discussion, with an aim towards repentance. What the outcome would be, would then be up to him.

Thanks...

Frank

B. Jones,

I don't think that you've read Bob's earlier comment, because he already addressed your PPS. He wrote:

I'm not sure where his home church is, but as an SDA pastor who votes Republican, I know what I would do. I would try to counsel with him, but if he were to persist in holding these views, I would call a church business meeting and drop him from membership. This is a clear instance when church discipline is necessary

Furthermore Mr. Jones, it appears to my faulty eyes that you're mischaracterizing several people's position. Most folks on this post, including - Bob, Ryan, Johnny - all with pastoral experience, are communicating a fair-minded tough love approach while you seem to be dancing around the central issue. Go read your first comment and reactions.

Rather than clucking our tongues and throwing up our hands in some sort of mainstream, not-my-problem relativism, Adventists here have not been afraid to call out a sin against humanity and advocate for community redemption.

Going and talking to anyone is fine. Tickling, not confronting the ears of overt Hitler-celebrating racists, moves the question from freedom to discuss, into freedom to support. As some in my twenties, I can't believe that I would have to explain that social views predicated on racial separation inherently create their own deeper social ills. Mr. Zirkle is not providing solutions, he is sowing deeper problems and any pastor worth his or her salt should know that social problems are sins against Christian community. Do you have no historical awareness of the consequences of baiting the American right-wing with tales of Jews and "white women?" He is advocating the reduction of freedom and isolation of others based on skin color and ethnicity.

It appears that you've not done much research into Mr. Zirkle's actual views (especially since you just tossed words into his mouth, instead of actually quoting the thousands of available on his site). If you want to take this debate "higher," I suggest actual research. Playing devil's advocate is fine, but let's not use his methodology.

You write:

black community might justify a re-segregation of the US. While I do not agree with these sentiments, what he has done and said does not fall under a biblical definition of sin that requires church discipline.

You realize that this Bible-silent-on-segregation argument is straight outta the KKK arguments surrounding the Civil War. Sowing the seeds of institutional segregation is a sin completely at odds with the God of love revealed in the Bible. If this is not clear to every Adventist, oh, dear God. . .

It is telling that you separate morality from Adventist beliefs. I know that you probably don't mean it like that, but notice how you root morality in the Bible and beliefs in the 28. Something tells me that we have a problem in Adventist identity when our fundamental beliefs are not clearly connected to our social actions.
__

Interesting point, Pat. I agree. : ) Mr. Zirkle's recontextualization of The Desire of Ages certainly raises some significant questions about how we understand our Adventist witness. It's interesting to see some folks justifying Mr. Zirkle's advocacy for racist ideas by saying that his waving The Desire of Ages for a couple of seconds is witnessing. We'd be a lot better off as a witness of who that book is about if our pubic presence elicited thoughts like "that sort of peacemaking and compassion for all is what I've been desiring for ages."

You're still not getting it Alex. This is my last try. Morality and politics are of course related. Take the issue of abortion (very political and strong moral dimensions to it). Our church officially respects the sanctity of life (the moral issue) but backs away from specific prescriptions of how that should be carried out in the political arena (i.e. we have no official stance on abortion). The point I am making is this: the SDA church takes stands on moral issues but not political issues (which of course have moral dimensions to them). We share the moral truth, and INDIVIDUALS must take the moral truth and drawn THEIR OWN prescriptions on how those moral truths are applied politically. Thus, we speak to morality, but avoid getting entangled in political issues as a denomination. We are good at doing this on the right (i.e. we don't join with Falwell and Robertson) but the lefties in our ranks don't seem to understand this point.
And as for research Alex...I've read his statements and visited his website. It is a bit arrogant and condescending to imply that since I don't agree with you I don't know my facts (and I'm using the devil's methodologies). The cherry on top is your facts (KKK was founded after the Civil War my friend). Being arrogant, and condescending is bad enough, but mix in wrong thinking and incorrect "facts" and it's more than any man can take! I gotta run cause I'm too busy to keep kicking this around. Hope you moral giants get the church cleaned up quickly and everybody in step. Peace out! - B.J.

By the way, for the record I do not believe that racial segregation is the answer to America's racial problems and I find Nazism repugnant. I was simply trying to get an intelligent discussion going concerning how the institution should deal with "colorful" members and how issues related to morality and politics should intersect in this faith community. I'm withdrawing because I didn't find many people who were willing to address argument without insult (i.e. "Mr. Jones you're uniformed and use the devil's tactics"). Maybe I'll pop back into this blog and try again sometime (this was the first time). The best to all. - B

I'm with Alex on this one. 1. Be sure of your facts.
2. Engage in dialogue and counseling if necessary.
3. Use due process in any action if warranted.

Before I was born, my mother and father lived In Mishawaka, Ind. a twin city of South Bend. Dad was a building contractor. His mother lived in Holland, Mich. She was in her final illness. Mother and Dad would drive to Holland every Friday Afternoon, spend Sabbath with his mother and return home late Sunday. This occurred every week throughout a long summer. In the fall, a delegation from the South Bend Seventh-day Adventist church appeared, unanounced. They were invited in. After greetings and a short prayer, the leader of the delegation came right to the point. "John and Ruth Zwemer, since neither of you have attended the South Bend Seventh-day Adventist Church for over 13 weeks, the Committee of Elders has voted to remove your names from the books. Do you have anything to say in your defense before we hold a Church business meeting? My dad replied, you are the ordained ones, use your own good judgment. Thanks you for coming, Good Night. May that never happen to any in this generation. Tom P.S. Mother and Dad were accepted into the Emmanuel Missionary College Church on Profession of Faith and Dad bought a week-end farm 4 miles out of Berrien.

B.Jones,

I did not choose to insult you. I agree with you on keeping politics and religion separate in terms of the church taking political sides as we would always be arguing different political nuances.

I too disagree with racism and segregation as a biblical mandate.

The problem again as I see it is that a "public political" figure implicated the church indirectly by the book "Desire of Ages" which he showed in his presentation. This potentially brings reproach on the church due to his visible public position.

If he holds weird/unbiblical positions and keeps them to himself and does not bring disorder to the local church by any direct action then my suggestion is that he be advised to keep his positions private publically as regards to religion unless a disclaimer is used to himself/SDA in his political pursuits.

I would ask in fairness to some on this site if they would be in favor of homosexual or heterosexual sexual impurity discipline "with the same fervor" they are seeking this mans discipline if it were a public figure. They are "all in the sin" category, I would suggest.

There is something to be said for discretion...not that it forgives or overlooks the sin but rather in the way it affects the church body publically as a whole...on this Zirkle failed miserably and is almost asking for some form of council/confrontation from his local church it would seem.

I am sure my previous two paragraphs can be twisted by some but join us again Pastor Jones. You comments were not without some foundation in how traditionally moral issues and political pronouncements have been to some degree avoided except in the most extreme cases. Zirkle does not represent the church on this issue however and should perhaps remain quiet about his religious roots.

pat

The devil thing was just a play on words. Sorry that you feel so attacked B. Jones. : )

I noticed that you didn't address Republican Pastor Bob's comment.

Actual quotes are always preferable in getting another person's views correct. For example:

I wrote:

the KKK arguments surrounding the Civil War.

You replied:

The cherry on top is your facts (KKK was founded after the Civil War my friend). Being arrogant, and condescending is bad enough, but mix in wrong thinking and incorrect "facts" and it's more than any man can take!

I didn't say they existed before. I said "arguments surrounding."

As you know, the KKK arose after the war over an certain interpretation of the events that transpired before and after, i.e., surrounding the Civil War. See The Clansman.

I could be more clear. But you just made an interpretative error by not quoting me.

Finally, you write:

Thus, we speak to morality, but avoid getting entangled in political issues as a denomination. We are good at doing this on the right (i.e. we don't join with Falwell and Robertson) but the lefties in our ranks don't seem to understand this point.

Hmm...really? On Feb. 12, the church's lobbyist, James Standish, testified before Congress on a certain piece of legislation, the Workplace Religious Freedom Act. Is that not political? What about the North American Religious Liberty Association inviting Adventists to spend a day meeting with their legislators in Washington DC. I bet that they are just handing out Steps to Christ. . . : )

Oh, I guess not. http://religiousliberty.info

it is the sixth annual Liberty Weekend. NARLA members from across the nation will come to Washington to get the latest updates from frontline religious liberty experts, meet their Members of Congress, attend our annual banquet with a keynote address by an American Leader (2006 address was Senator John McCain, 2007 address was by Senator John Kerry), take a tour of the White House, and enjoy one of the most inspiring, spiritually uplifting Sabbaths you will ever experience.

Darn, lefties and righties, gettin' entangled in the public square to protect our freedom to worship. And they then have the gall to worship together, after being political together.
To what is this church coming? If only we could get back to those good old days when E. G. White and A.T. Jones, oh wait. . .: )

We are political animals, as Aristotle said. And whether we are aware of it or not, our actions are a public square witness. We cannot say that what we think or say or attend is not a reflection of our morality. We don't champion Robertson because he's political, rather we do so because the moral worldview that fuels many of his positions doesn't fit ours. We can't just go around negotiating issues by saying, we righties will be quiet on abortion if you lefties don't vote for the environment. Instead, as Christians and as citizens, we must parse out the facts and ideology, our scripture and our moral applications, and take stands and learn from each other.

An Adventist is not right or wrong for merely advocating, rather we are each responsible for the reasons for and results of our public square witness.

Pat,

Good point about the DOA plug at the Nazi rally. Also, I feel bad about painting all with the same brush. Not all were slinging around a little insult. Only with our dear host did I get that vibe, but praise the Lord, now I'm already over it! (said with a grin). But I do gotta back off cause this blog is takin' too much of my time!

BJ

Has anyone else noticed that one of the links from Zirkle's website goes to an anti-Semitic article on Al-Jazeera magazine? It makes sense, but I guess I hadn't quite figured out that anti-Semitism could be the thing to unite militant fundamentalist Muslims and militant conservative Christians - thus the front-page story of the Al-J website on the US Democratic primary campaign: "Hillary Clinton announced her readiness to reduce 70 million innocent Iranian lives to ashes so that she could imagine her picture in the White House."

Strange bedfellows. But not in the Biblical sense, of course. Homophobia might be the only other thing that could bring those two camps together.

I should clarify that the article Zirkle links to is at aljazeera.com, not aljazeera.net. The .net one seems to offer less bias than the .com site.

Give this Zirkle fellow enough rope---and he will do himself in without others' help. Let him twist slowly in the wind. No audience equals no impact!

Elaine,
Yet silence is a form of complicity. Beyond his membership in our church, he brings forth one of our founders in his talk to this group. To not respond to these events is to suggest indifference or, worse, tacit support of Zirkles segregation agenda, neo-nazi assocations etc.

Our church does have a moral witness to offer to this world. Zirkle's vision is not it. We need to say so and we need to say why.

Thanks!

B. Jones-
You are right on target and I don't see anything you have written that I disagree with. I wish I were as articulate in expressing an opinion that most on this list don't seem to comprehend.

To twist what you advocate is most unfortunate. Don't go away, B. Jones!!

Pat, I don't want to take change the topic of this thread, as it's clearly an important one (I agree with Johnny that silence is a form of complicity, and I believe he's quoting our church president on that one); however, you said something I wanted to address: "I would ask in fairness to some on this site if they would be in favor of homosexual or heterosexual sexual impurity discipline 'with the same fervor' they are seeking this mans discipline if it were a public figure. They are "all in the sin" category, I would suggest."

It's really dangerous to use a broad stroke like this and put things ''all in the sin category." Assuming that you're not talking about sexual violence (homosexual or heterosexual), there just isn't any way to lump this together (no matter your view on homosexuality) with racism and anti-semitism which strives to limit the freedoms and basic humanity of entire groups of people. Notions of racial supremacy and racial segregation cause holocausts, something the group Zirkle chose to speak to (and wave Desire of Ages at) celebrates.

Daneen,

I am not ranking...just calling all sin. All fall short of true humanity and God's will and show our desire for autonomy from Him...also a sin. All are to be challenged as outside of God's will. None to be accepted by present cultural norms. That's my view.

But the good news is,"that if we confess and acknowledge our sin he is faithful to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."...no matter the "ranking."

pat

Does anyone out there personally know Zirkle? I can't imagine that he hasn't been informed of this Spectrum blog by now. I'd like to invite him to contact Alexander Carpenter and give his own statement. I should think he could, at the very least, do this...I mean, the guy’s not afraid to stand in front of a group of neo-nazis...

Gaylene,
I know there are a lot of comments on this thread.
Scroll up and you'll read from Ryan Bell who does know Zirkle.

One would expect Tony Zirkle to make a statement on his website at the very least...
http://www.tonyzirkle.com/campaign/home

He hasn't though. It would however be very interesting to see what he has to say!

Just saw this take on Zirkle linked from Megan McCardle's blog on theatlantic.com.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/stupid_is_as_stupid_does.php

DISFELLOWSHIP? MAYBE! CENSURE? CERTAINLY!

Perhaps I missed it above, but if so maybe it is worth repeating. This is that the SDA Church Manuel provides for censuring a person the congregation does not want to disfellowship.

In this way the congregation can publicly register its disapproval, perhaps even with a news release, without banishing anybody.

I hope the Conference President encourages the congregation to take this step, the sooner the better.

In the end it is the congregation's right to decide questions of membership. Although this policy may not seem right in this case, on balance it usually is.

Dave

Johnny, I went to the Zirkle campaign website address you listed in your last posting and read it clear through. I almost wished I hadn't. Maybe we really don't want him making any statements on his website since it could possibly further link him to the SDA church. This guy's got more problems than just speaking in front of neo-nazis!!!

You really have to read the website of this person to see what is wrong - it is not that he innocently stumbled into this meeting - his site is a virtual pant load of bad ideas.

I wonder if he had these ideas while at AU or if he hid them? How many made it through the net and hold these ideas but are not dumb enough to articulate them?

How evanescent is the freedom of association when a person is convicted by the bluster and expostulations of a few!

Nary a word about the heinous acts, not just words, but acts in the name of the state of Texas. Children ripped from their mothers with no words from this group. Paternalistic child welfare advocates are having a field day and children's lives are being torn asunder. Where are our values?

One other thing - he seems very obsessed with porn and prostitution - mentions it in almost every sentence. The kind of thing that makes you go "hmmmm"

One final thought - if SNL wanted to do a parody of this guy's campaign, they would have nowhere to go.

"Your Friend" -- clearly you haven't read the current column by Dave Larson on the Texas ranch situation or you wouldn't blithely and accusingly say that "Children [are] ripped from their mothers with no words from this group." It's currently featured on the home page or you can find it here: http://spectrummagazine.org/articles/column/2008/04/21/polygamy_patriarc...

Pat--I know we differ on whether or not loving, committed same-sex relationships are sinful, but no matter our difference on that, can't you see that there's a really, really big difference between two adults being in a consensual relationship and a politician trying to campaign on a platform of anti-Semitism and racism? The latter is actively trying to get a whole class of people[s] treated as sub-human so their rights and freedoms can be challenged (usually for the monetary gain of someone else). Talk about acting against God!

Thanks for that link, Heather (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/stupid_is_as_stupid_does.php). I can't resist pasting some of it here:

Oh, well, stupid is as stupid does, but particularly hilarious is Zirkle's rationale:

"I'll speak before any group that invites me," Zirkle said Monday. "I've spoken on an African-American radio station in Atlanta."

That's right. He's equating Nazis to African-Americans. What I want to know, though, is how a neo-Nazi group managed to meet in Chicago, of all places. Where are Jake and Elwood when you need them?

Even worse is what Zirkle said when asked what he thought of the group to which he had given a speech:

When asked if he was a Nazi or sympathized with Nazis or white supremacists, Zirkle replied he didn't know enough about the group to either favor it or oppose it.

"Didn't know enough to either favor or oppose it?" My jaw dropped when I read that. These guys are Nazis after all. Believe it or not, it gets even worse:

This is just a great opportunity for me to witness," he said, referring to his message and his Christian belief.

He also told WIMS radio in Michigan City that he didn't believe the event he attended included people necessarily of the Nazi mindset, pointing out the name isn't Nazi, but Nationalist Socialist Workers Party.

Apparently Zirkle doesn't know the derivation of the word "Nazi."...

P.S. Thanks to the article above adding an update, I just saw that Zirkle has posted a comment on his website: http://www.tonyzirkle.com/CAMPAIGN/ It's clear why he was invited by Neo-Nazis to a party for Hitler--he's beyond even being a clear sympathizer. Apparently he needs a lesson on valid sources too...or he's just too biased to known that sites with names like "Jew Watcher" and "Aljazeera" and "The Real Jew News" aren't really know for unbiased views.

Here's a quote dated yesterday from his website:

April 25, 2008

I've been getting a flood of e-mails and phone calls, some of which include death threats, about my attempt to raise awareness of how the great porn dragon inspires Jews into pornography and prostitution and then, like the snake he is, turns the public against the Jews. Some have questioned whether there is any link to Jews and porn-prostitution. I guess I'll have to start showing the evidence:

[Go to his website for the list http://www.tonyzirkle.com/CAMPAIGN/ --Personally, I don't want to give them links from this site.

Unfortunately, those Web sites are just a small fraction of evidence you can find on a Google search of combinations of "Jews" "pornography" "sex slavery" "Israel" and "prostitution." Let's save our Jewish brothers and sisters from this tyrant king porn dragon before we get to another world-wide pogrom.

So, apparently, like many other oppressive movements before his "save our Jewish brothers ands sisters form this tyrant king porn dragon before we get to another world-wide pogram" is a hateful, oppressive message wrapped in a patriarchal cloak of "let's help them." Notice that he's using Revelations-seminar type language too--it's the "porn dragon," not just porn that needs slaying.

The only conclusion one can derive from the quote Daneen posted in her comment above is...

Holocaust. Zirkle sees a pogrom on the horizon. Sounds like what Hitler said.

/just thought I'd boil it down
//hat tip to Heather Isaacs Royce for the link

So Zirkle's lack of condemnation for Nazism, and attempt to win political support from them is reprehensible, yes? Worthy of public condemnation, expulsion from the so-called "body of christ" on earth? Some seem not too sure. In the name of ideological freedom some on this blog are willing to expose their moral and spiritual home to someone so far outside any sort of christianity it's baffling. I thought palling around with Nazis and talking about how Jews were the merchants of corrupting influences upon white culture was pretty much indefensible.

It's really strange how anxious some people can be to make sure there is no ideologically or morally based suppression of Nazi sympathy, all in the misguided attempt to support freedom. What happens when people don't work to suppress a hatefully ideology that calls for social domination based on race? It usually happens. Honestly, why then so anxious to go to bat for someone who obviously supports oppressive ideologies? The only times I've been around Nazis is when I've been protesting things they are doing (white pride marches) and when they are protesting things I'm doing (opposing the war in Iraq, demonstrating for immigrant rights). Was Zirkle there to oppose them? They're still pretty big fans of his so I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't there to chastise them with whips. http://12.107.40.66/lsn/news.asp?articleID=10703

I went to Andrews for a year, had one professor who thought homosexuality inherently anti-social and thus justified legislation opposing gay rights - no overt racists, though I never went to seminary.

P.S. on the issue of the hilariously nicknamed "porn dragon" me thinks the man doth protest too much, did he really get such well-developed hand muscles from holding up The Desire of Ages?

Craog:

To be an advocate for "due process" in no wise implies that one is advocating support for the accused.
In all the years I spent as the Senior Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Officer for the Medical College of Georgia, I never had one finding reversed by either the Board of Regent or the Federal Courts. The fellow that followed me after my retirement had three reversals in his first year.

Tony's overt behavior is reprehensible on its face. None-the-less, those that welcomed him into fellowship should be the ones to decide his current standing in the Church, not us. Even then, unless it meet the criteria of a criminal offense we should leave the final judgment with the Lord.

Some of the finest people I know are Seventh-day Adventists.
Some of the most disgusting people I know are/were Seventh-day Adventists. Open sin, the Church has a process for cleansing. Secret sin, is for the Lord alone. Tom

I knew there was a reason that I didn't blog about this when I saw the post about Zirkle's idea for re-segregation. I went to his website, and scrolled down to his...manifesto? declaration of beliefs? wev. This is what I found:

"The answer is to solve the issues that voters care about - Health Care, Jobs, Immigration, Iraq, Internet Porn, and Anti-Semitism. My conspiracy theory for the 2008 primary is that porn, the most effective wmd, makes the world war go round and is the central justice obstructor that is inhibiting solutions to the above issues. In my view, the best way to cut taxes is to address the social issues that tax us 1/2 to death and that inspire our enemies who don't want their daughters treated worse than Michael Vick's dogs. If I have to hear one more young single mother in my family law practice tell me that she gets treated worse than a dog, I'm going to consider running a campaign that is not intentionally devised to lose so that I can enjoy my summer." (emphasis mine) http://www.tonyzirkle.com/CAMPAIGN/

I'm not sure what his goals are with this campaign - if he's serious or not - but this buried paragraph gave me pause then, and still does now. His entire campaign seems bizarre and idiotic. Is it real?

jen*

Check the pattern. Naval Academy, Seminary, Neo-Nazi

The guy is a control freak--he longs for a cookie cutter life style in which he is the cookie cutter. Now, if he will only join the Trappist monks that will be the last we hear from him. Tom

I'm touched by Tony's desire to save me and my ilk from the porn dragon.

Did someone say earlier that he's married to a Jew?

Should be an interesting relationship . . .

I noticed in one of the video clips he has to tear off pages of his Penthouse Magazine to shred it. I wonder if he checked to see if the centerfold shredded better if it was unfolded?

As far as the great opportunity to witness, I am sure he did witness about his views and beliefs.

The issue for me is not an SDA church member who is the total fringe of American political thought (and very public about it). The beef I have is with those who want to leverage the church to impose political orthodoxy by censure, disfellowship, etc. You can cry "it's immoral to think this way" all day long but I see that as a slippery slope that needs to be treaded carefully. After all, abortion is a political and moral issue. If an SDA candidate supported partial birth abortions could the church board disfellowship him? What if a candidate opposed affirmative action and had strong right wing views on immigration, could she be disfellowshipped? I could keep going with examples but my point is made. I'm not saying that Tony's local church should not address this, but they should do so very carefully. There must not be a political litmus test to be an SDA. I realize there is a line here, I'm just saying this issue calls for more caution than many here seem to realize.

Lets look at the bright side.
He could have decided to go into the ministry instead of politics.
The bad thing is,
It would have taken longer to find out he was suffering from whackydoodleness. (its a medical term I'm sure)

I too read the link that Heather posted. The best word I can use to describe it is... creepy. This goes far beyond his freedom to air his off center political views. He is running for a postion of power and influence while publicly representing the church...and in a not so veiled way, ADVOCATING GENOCIDE!!!!!!!!!

How can anyone not get the point?!!!!

Thanks...

Frank

Yes, Cliff--someone did say that his wife is Jewish (she's converted to Adventism). She's the one who I feel for the most, as I can only imagine what type of control he exerts in their home.

B Jones. Coddle fascists if you want them in your church, as has been mentioned already, it wouldn't be the first time for SDAs. Point taken, there is a line. I thought is was pretty much taken for granted that neo-Nazi sympathies meant that it had been crossed.

Look, I never heard of a single SDA in Germany or Austria being disfellowshipped, or even disciplined, for being a Nazi (I have an SDA friend who told me his SDA parents were committed Nazis), so we think Zirkle going to get in trouble with the church over this?

Get real! There's more a chance of him getting kicked out for eating pickled pig's feet than than for being a Nazi sympathizer.

Cliff,

If what you are saying is true, then it is a sad, sad commentary on the church to which we belong...the one that calls itself the "remnant." Eating what is considered a "banned food" is more of a spiritual problem and cause for discipline than sympathizing or affiliating oneself with a political party that in the past has commited genocide, and, given the right conditions, would likely do so in the future?!!! Who needs to get real??!!!!!!!

Is the concept of straining out gnats and swallowing camels alien to this neck of the woods??

Frank

Cliff
At least we agree on something of substance! Offenses against orthodoxy are clearly judged more severely than offenses against human decency, and I'm glad to see you take such a clear stand.

"Words matter!" Obama responded when Hillary went after his elegent rhetoric. And they do, because they inspire action. Unfortunately, many people approach morality as a system of taboos. If movies are banned, we don't go. If TV is not, we watch. If nazi sympathies are not under interdict, they are permissible, and you end up with pigs' feet weighing more than Adolf Hitler.

To be a moral human being means that you are guided by values and not by casuistry. In the SDA church, the reliance on EGW's writings to provide moral guidance has short-circuited many Adventists ability to follow their moral gut feeling. They can look up what God says about eating pig's feet but there is no entry under 'nazi', so what do you do?

You do what the Adventist church is doing right now. You twiddle your thumbs and hope it blows over. The nazis weren't that bad, were they?

Aage Rendalen

Follow their "moral gut feeling"? Sorry, Aagee, I find that a scary thought for any group of people. Some of these Nazis Zirkle was, ahem, "ministering" to were probably doing just that.

Following one's own "moral gut feelings"? Haven't we learned by now how poorly that works?

Cliff
I argued:"To be a moral human being means that you are guided by values". Following your gut feeling was used in that context.

There is no answer for every moral quandry we face. If we have internalized our values, we shall have to trust our "gut feelings" and make choices accordingly. I was arguing against the idea that "if it isn't forbidden, it's permitted."

Just thought I'd add that Tony Zirkle and his speech at Hitler's b-day party was featured on NPR's news quiz/comedy show "Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me." The host had to keep repeating that he wasn't making up any of the details....the giant poster of Hitler, the swastikas, the crusade against porn, the platform to bring back the guillotine, and the "I didn't know enough about them to know if I endorse their positions" attitude on Zirkle's part when he got caught. It got plenty of laughs of the "wow-can-you-believe-someone-would-actually-do-this" type that they normally reserve for really stupid criminals. I was just thankful his religious affiliation wasn't mentioned (their research team must not have looked up the book Zirkle was handing out....).

"A Seventh-day Adventist lawyer and Republican candidate who advocates racism and Naziism?" A question from a reader. I have seen with my own eyes photos of SDAs in the time of war in 1918. You would not believe in what activities Adventists at that time engaged in, and with whom they associated themselves. Nevertheless I do not judge these people nor Mr. Zirkle, the judgement seat is reserved for the Lawgiver.

Whether you went to school, seminary or church with someone, does not mean you know him/her. My sugesstion, pray for him(Mr. Zirkle and others like him), make intercession and give thanks that your prayers have been heard.

Lurk
So why don't you tell us what these unspeakable acts were. I know that in Europe the so-called Reformist Movement arose after WWI in response to the German Union having gone along with the war effort. But no participation in atrocities was alleged by the Reformists, as far as I can remember. Are you sure you're not getting WWI and WWII mixed up?

An atrocity is not always one to the extent of "gasing or participating therein" someone. This is why I mentioned and "with whom" they associate themselves with. The riff in the SDA German/European(still with all vigour existing) came out of 1918. This "separation" was/is caused by that which I would term "ethical and moral" atrocities, which speak against the inspired word and our beliefs. I can safely say that human memory is "passed on" and being an SDA in Germany, I know from what I speak(I am not puzzled or confused).

I have asked this question many times, even to reformists, that was so long ago, why still remain seperated? Many don't even know why they call themselves reformists. And trust me, there is an active evangelisiation of SDAs taking place right now. Not on the scope of TV or Radio, but in the most effective manner, 1 to 1 contact.

You somehow want to imply with your question and comments, that by me not naming any of the acts which I saw(in pictures) my claims are not worth taking seriously. So be it. The SDA grapvine or Potluck channel(many know from what I speak) will not get that information from me.

***I now resign myself to lurking once more***

Lurker
I ran into similar groups at the Vienna General Conference session in 1975, when I was still a member. I'm not trying either to defend or to attack the SDA church on the issue of WWI. As a German you obviously do not confuse WWI and WWII (Ich wusste nicht dass du deutsch war), but you can't expect people to react to information that you're not willing to divulge. You were the one to bring up horrible acts committed by German Adventists. As long as nobody here knows what your talking about, all we can do is to shrug our shoulders--and suspect that you're part of the Reformists who have not been able to let history deal with the long-dead Adventist decision makers of 1918.

I think the best course of action is to refer Zirkle's positions and his behavior to his congregation and conference, and let them decide it. Isn't that the reason that congregations are allowed to vote on membership in the first place?

Politically, LEAVE THE MAN ALONE. The religious freedom that our church backs is inextricably tied into the freedom of speech that lets men like the Zirkle promote the guillotine, resegregation, and rail against "Zionist pornographers."

It pains me to say this, and it kills me to know that some readers might see this as a promotion of the views that Zirkle is espousing. But let Zirkle's congregation and party handle him now...and let Zirkle's God, and our God handle him later.

My cell phone has always been posted on my Web site. It is 317 658-0107. I am the expert on my position, and not one of you has called me to learn what that position is. I am particularly disappointed with Cliff Goldstein's posting a "rumor" about my parents on this site. If there's ever been a single shred of Nazi affiliation with my senior citizen parents, it would be wild news to me. What does our church say about gossip? And for you, Ryan Bell, I would have thought that at least you would have called me.

Hi Tony,

Thanks for joining the conversation.

I emailed two of the email addresses that include your name on your website and didn't receive a reply. But I will be calling tomorrow to set up an interview.

Shoot me an email if you have a preferred time.

alexander[at]spectrummagazine[dot]o r g

Tony--

Read the post again. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about someone else, a German, who told me that his parents were committed Nazis under Hitler--and loyal SDAs.

Nothing was said about your parents, of whom I know nothing about.

Cliff (in Germany right now!)

Alexander:

I was in court today in Indianapolis and Bloomington, so if you called, I'm sorry I missed you. I'll be checking my voice mails later tonight. I only got 2 or 3 hrs of sleep last night because of work so I had to take a nap this evening.

I just recently found this blog by checking to see if I had made wikipedia.org yet. This link is the #1 link there when you search for "Tony Zirkle." Because the public now has notice of this blog, I'd like to request permission to share with you some of my research.

I read and responded to every e-mail and would have thought I would have noticed one from Spectrum magazine. I even responded to every Jewish death threat and even the one who wished for me to get AIDS from one of my divorce clients and die. If you still have those e-mails, can you forward them to me at lawfirm@tonyzirkle.com (I check that multiple times a day when I'm not in court) so that I can investigate with my Web developer? I did put a note on my home page that said there were problems with the e-mail box on the right. I was running a 12 county Congressional campaign and 3 law offices by myself, so I was a tad busy. Perhaps I overlooked them by mistake.

I tried to keep up with some of the blogs and mis-information, but the GPD's (Great Porn Dragon) flooding assault on my exposing of his favorite lair (porn-prostitution) made it impossible for one person to respond to everything.

Very truly yours,
Tony Zirkle

Mr. Goldstein:

You wrote:

"Look, I never heard of a single SDA in Germany or Austria being disfellowshipped, or even disciplined, for being a Nazi (I have an SDA friend who told me his SDA parents were committed Nazis), so we think Zirkle going to get in trouble with the church over this?

Get real! There's more a chance of him getting kicked out for eating pickled pig's feet than than for being a Nazi sympathizer."

When you said "his parents" you didn't clarify if that was referring to mine or your friend's. The sentence could be read either way. Anyway, thanks for clarifying your statement. Pehaps I read it wrong for a reason to get your attention. I may not be your intellectual equal, but I'd be honored to engage you in a debate sometime on the issues I have tried to raise in my campaign. I can defend my position with respect the the danger to SDAs that I see from Jews in Porn space. http://www.jewishquarterly.org/article.asp?articleid=38

I believe it was Andrews Revelation Professor Douglas Waterhouse who once made an offhand comment in class that Jews will also be caught up in the mark of the beast since they keep Sabbath. There's a strong and vast history of anti-Semitism in both Catholicism and Islam, so anti-semitism is a logical platform to unite the two. Pakistan has keep Sunday since the 1970s as opposed to Friday which is still observed throughout much of the Islamic world.

Porn gives anti-Semites a logical and rational platform to attack Jews. In their slanderous work, "The Eternal Jew," the Nazis leveled many criminal statistics against that community, but, interestingly, they culminated their argument with the undocumented claim that Jews careteled "97% of all international prostitution."

I've proposed a type of "affirmative action" for Jews which would involve removing all profit-potential from porn-prostitution by making the video or photo marketing (commercial sex) of any sex act fall under the definition of prostitution. Right now, most lawyers (the only class who gets to decide on the level of neo-Baal porn worship our society tolerates) are misguided and truly believe that charging $20 for a sex act on the street corner gets you arrested for prostitution, but if you get paid $20,000 for a weekend bukkaki with scores on video tape, you are a "star" worthy of absolute protection by the very first of all Amendments to our Constitution. I've racked my brain for over 12 years to understand my law school Holllywood porn defense attorney professor's position, and I just don't see that the video tape is making a distinction without a difference.

Respectfully yours,
Tony Zirkle

WWJD: What would Jesus do?

Can someone expose for me the non sequitor in this argument?

1. One of Jesus' very first and last acts of his 3 1/2 year public ministry was to "cleanse the temple."
2. What is the temple now? "But when Jesus said “this temple,” he meant his own body." John 2:21; "Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself," 1 Cor. 6:19
3. What is the greatest sin/crime against the body temple? "Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body."; "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
4. "Fornication" in English derives from the Greek word "porn."

If this argument is sound, then shouldn't we be a bit hesitant to absolutely and completely rule-out any possible literal application to the 2nd Angel's message in Rev. 14:8

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

"U.S. Freedom means Porn/Prostitution for Iraq"
http://archives.themadina.com//year2003/1071496299.html
Who promotes porn throughout the globe more than the beast from the sea?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/09/30/baghdad.blogger/index.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C93F2AF9-348F-4100-8193-C176A2DDE...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/980065/posts
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/136269_comment.php (be ware the graphic war pictures)

Respectfully submitted,
Tony Zirkle

I just received this e-mail today. It's typical of what I've been getting since I've decided to do all I can to expose the GPD.

"Legal Advice

Like I'd take any from a horrible, evil and twister spawn of Satan such as you Tony. Seriously, white power? Do the world a favour a die quietly in a corner. Thanks a bunch you evil hate monger.
Love,
Rob."

On the one hand, some say fools rush to where angels fear to tread. On the other hand, sometimes it takes the use of a simple man to attempt to confound those who think themselves wise. Acting a bit crazy from time to time is a good self-defense technique (not to mention a technique that is far more interesting to the press), and I'll continue to use it from time to time, at least until I can get my message fully preserved on the public record. King David even used it once, and it saved his life.

As I recall, it was protesting the King's adultery (the parent class for porn-prostitution) that got John the Baptist's head served up on a platter. I thought I recall Jesus using the term "wicked and adulterous generation," but I don't recall what translation that was. Is that a correct quote? If he also stated that "this generation will not pass," then perhaps my campaign against the GPD is prophetically destined to fail. If so, then I'll just have to run "The Impossible Dream" quixotic campaign because I just can't stop protesting against the GPD.

TZ

I should initially state some of the experience I have had that has lead me to my political positions about the GPD. They include:

1. a year long course in legal research and writing with a Hollywood porn defense attorney who made us read many of the U.S. Supreme Court obscenity decisions
2. serving as a deputy prosecutor in St. Joseph, Lake and Elkhart Counties in Indiana where I was for a time the lead drug dealing prosecutor and where I was assigned the task of prosecuting the local adultery book stores in South Bend.
3. working (although minimally) with the Department of Justice's Child Exploitation and Obscenity unit on the world's largest porn investigation where they gave me Grand Jury info access.
4. befriending 3 of the Reagan-Bush era top federal obscenity prosecutors and picking their brains for knowledge and info about how the business size of the porn-prostitution cults operate
5. interviews with several IRS (the money laundering schemes), Customs (the murder, intimidation, private investigators and fear tactis of the porn mob and mafia - my family got stalked for 2 days after my first indictment came down), and L.A. Vice unit (who explained to me how they nailed the Tracy Lords cases) officials who provided me with a real education that no one should have and who answered my numberous questions
6. Attending the Department of Justice's Cyber stalking week long course in Columbia, SC where I was trained on how to engage in Internet sex crimes investigations
7. reading about Luke Ford's (yes, Desmond's son) chronicleing of the prevalence of Jews in Porn space. He wrote a book called "Rebel without a Shul" and has massive blogs that I can't seem to find anymore. He used to own lukeford.com, but a porn site bought it and now he operates on lukeford.net. He's converted to orthodox Judaism, and someone needs to strive to save his soul if he has formally rejected Jesus as his personal savior which I do not know. Perhaps the massive church controversy with his dad had an effect on this child of God.
8. My conversatios with numerous clients in my state wide criminal and family law practice. People tell me the very most intimite details of their lives in the first fiew moments of meeting them. I've looked into the eyes of far too many adultery victims, some of whom adopted the "wife-swapping" doctrine of Nicholas, one of the original deacons in Acts.
9. Last for now, but definitely not least, is reading the history of sexual lack of discipline and it's consequences. ie if you don't recall, look up the entire and exact quote from Reheboam that caused civil war in Israel. There was more there than whips and scorpions. cf: 66:9:15 - porn, drugs, thefts, murders.

My theory is that porn (in all its forms) robs the soul of peace. Our youth turn to drugs to find that peace. They steal to support their drug habit until they eventually deal. Then they murder to fight over turf. As one DEA agent recently explained to me in a federal drug case, meth is so wicked, the real addicts can never "reach the goal" in intimate relations. So, they go nuts if they can't keep a continual drug high.

I'm guessing EGW was aware of the rampant practice in the 19th Century of male docotors giving female "hysterical" women divorce aid treatments with "steely dan" type machines. I'm not sure if she was hinting at that practice in this quote. I seem to recall a more specific reference, but I would not want to make an apocraphal claim without doing my homework first.

"Larger Number of Female Physicians Needed.--In our medical institutions there ought always to be women of mature age and good experience who have been trained to give treatments to the lady patients. Women should be educated and qualified just as thoroughly as possible to become practitioners in the delicate diseases which afflict women, that their secret parts should not be exposed to the notice of men. There should be a much larger number of lady physicians, educated not only to act as trained nurses, but also as physicians. It is a most horrible practice, this revealing the secret parts of women to men, or men being treated by women.--SpT-B15 13, 14 (1911).{DG 95.3}
Husband and Wife Physicians Work Together Effectively.--In the medical missionary work to be done, women should give treatment to women. A man and his wife who are both physicians can accomplish great good by laboring together. The wife can visit other women, and when she finds suffering and disease, she can consult with her husband as to the best method of helping the sufferers. We should have more women physicians than we have. When women who are sick are treated and cared for by women, a door through which Satan tries to enter is closed against him. Many cases have been presented to me where Satan has entered through this door to ruin families. Let him not obtain any advantage upon any point. {DG 95.4}
I wish all to understand this matter. There should be in our sanitariums women physicians who can stand by their husbands, and who 96 can do the examining of women patients, and give them treatment. Many more sensible, thoroughly converted women should become intelligent physicians. {DG 95.5}
I am instructed that our sanitariums must have women physicians as well as men physicians.--MM 140 (1910).{DG 96.1}

Women to Treat Women; Men to Treat Men
Women to Be Thoroughly Trained as Physicians.--Women physicians should utterly refuse to look upon the secret parts of men. Women should be throughly educated to work for women, and men to work for men. Let men know that they must go to their own sex and not apply to lady physicians. It is an insult to women, and God looks upon these things of commonness with abhorrence.--SpT-B15 14 (1911)."{DG 96.2}

Courts across the country are now declaring that women have a "fundamental constitutional right of privacy" to engage in the self-abuse secret sin of divorce aid abuse when they should be drinking waters from their own husband's fountain, as Jeremiah would put it.

Here's an interesting quote about EGW protesting against prostitution:

"Houses of ill fame are legalized. Women who travel alone through those 253 cities, if they are the least suspicious of them, are taken up by the authorities and their cases are investigated. If they are diseased they are placed in the care of the doctors and cured. Then they are fit for the visits of men and are placed in the legalized home for men to satisfy their lusts upon. No examination is made of the men, and where this law is carried into effect the crime and immorality resemble the condition of the world which existed previous to the Flood." {DG 252.8}

Some say it took Jesus 7 times to fix Mary Magdalene. EGW protested prostitution. Elijah found his battle of Megiddo against the Baal sex cult prostitution capitalists.

So, if I protest against the porn dragon, I should be hauled before an SDA inquisition to be potentially disfellowshipped? Actually, I would welcome it. We might learn from each other, although I'm sure I'd be doing the vast majority of the learning.

Tony
You're trying to define the issues you raised by appearing before a Nazi celebration of Hitler's birthday in terms of your obsessive interest in pornography. What we would like to hear from you is why you would even consider standing under a portrait of Hitler and rail against Jews?

Tony,
I just wish that your strong feelings of moral repugnance of pornography was matched by an equally fervent repudiation of Nazism and anti-Semitism.

Frankly it feels to me that you might have reason to think that you've lost your way when you find yourself speaking to folks with swastikas on their arms about the Jewish threat to society.

Your home church is the most important community for you when it comes to Adventism. Not a comment area on Spectrum's blog. Not wikipedia. Nor any other internet forum.

Really, truly and sincerely,
blessings and peace on you brother!

Lawyers are supposed to be the physicians of society. Right now, "Nazis" have no political power and have more than their fair share of critics. The Jewish dominated media has all but thoroughly educated us all to despise even the word Nazi. My contribution in criticizing Nazis would be both irrelevant and a waste of time because I could add next to nothing.

The porn capitalists, on the other hand, have too few critics and have immense political power. Physicians go to those who are sick, and the porn capitalists need more treatment at this stage in history than a few dozen hate speakers who are making next to no impact.

My suggestion that anti-Semitism could unite Christians and Muslims on the mark of the beast issue is about as strong a critique as it could get. My plan to separate Jews from porn-prostituion so that anti-Semitism would lose one of, if not it's best, argument, is about the most pro-Jewish position I can imagine. People just don't listen. I understand and realize that we've all been programmed to just react with knee-jerk wild conclusions and just assume anybody who raises the issues I do is an automatic anti-Semite, racist and bigot. I'm still the expert on my positions, and they're neither anti-Semitic, racist or bigoted.

Tony
You went to the birthday party for Adolph Hitler to comfort these poor abused brown-shirts because the Jewish-dominated media has been unfairly harsh on them?

At least one good thing has come out of this debacle: The good people of South Bend won't have to worry about being represented in Congress by you. I wish I could be more positive but you just keep digging yourself deeper into your dark, moral hole.

Gee, Tony, I'm so touched by your desire to save my people from porn. You're such a good hearted soul.

With folks like you, who needs Nazis?

Tony,
Am I to understand that the "Jewish dominated media" are the only ones who have properly taught us to hate "Nazi thought" and that the "porn capitalist" are all Jewish?

What in hades are you talking about? I suggest you need some serious down time and reflection Tony.

Tony,

"The Jewish educated media has all but thoroughly educated us all to despise even the word Nazi?"

We're not supposed to despise a party that is responsible for the murder of 6,000,000 Jews and over 20,000,000 people altogether? We need to feel like we've got to apologize for being educated about a political party, that if it had access to real political power, would probably repeat it's history? That holds birthday celebrations for its insane, homicidal, dead founder and leader?

No one is talking about you criticizing Nazis! You didn't even have to mention them in a political campaign. But once you show up at a birthday party for Hitler, and start in with Jew bashing over your phantasmagoric connection between Jews and porn, all bets are off!!!

Who needs some serious re-educating?!!

Frank

Who says we aren't a spectrum of ideas now? : ) Hey, Pat, I agree.

btw: Anyone notice how much sex lies behind a lot of discussions of sin and politics - from homosexuality to race?

It's not always nice in polite society - like y'all - but at some point we Adventists really need to make sure that we aren't turning our own unconscious psychological struggles - squeamishness - into a morality of oppression and gracelessness.

Cliff:

You wrote:

"Gee, Tony, I'm so touched by your desire to save my people from porn. You're such a good hearted soul.

With folks like you, who needs Nazis?"

Don't you also want to save "your" people from the GPD (Great Porn Dragon)? If so, then why can't I try to "save" "my" people, white Christian Europeans from the GPD as well. My impression as a prosecutor was that probably 95% or so of all "porn stars" were young white Christian women, who often hung a Christian cross around their necks while being subjected to what the Jewish pornographers call the "money shot."

Are you saying that we would need Nazis if I did not speak up?

I'm reminded of my Naval Academy plebe summer squad leader Michael Gabriel who once told me, "Know your enemy." I know the GPD all too well, and have received a legal education about him through my work as an attorney that no one should have to endure. The first time I saw child porn, I had nightmares for 2 nights.

The GPD is an evil, viscious tyrant that must be vigororously oppossed by all lawful means. King Josiah did not argue for separation of church and state on this issue; he torn down the sex prostitution cults of his day and received multiple blessings for doing so. If some SDAs wish to remain lukewarm about the GPD, that's their decision. I choose to march hot on his trail and stand coldly firm when the GPD attacks back.

"Elijah" dies this time, at least many of them will. Some movie going worldy Adventists might recall Darth Vader's statement, "Do not underestimate the power of the dark side of the force." I'm concerned that the flippant comments on here reveal that some may underestimate the power of the GPD.

Mr. Goldstein, I'll keep "touching" you if you keep responding.

Warmest Intellectual regards,
Tony Zirkle

May you all have a blessed Sabbath day.

Tony,

And I guess all those "wordly, movie going Adventists" you speak of can spend quiet Sabbath time figuring out how displaying public sympathies towards the Nazis and espousing separatist, racist views are a less egregious offense than watching "Speed Racer." This is a case of gnats and camels if I've ever seen one.

Astounding!

Frank

May you all have a blessed Sabbath day.
Posted by: Tony Zirkle (not verified) | 23 May 2008 at 1:27
===================================================

Wow. Just wow.

You all seem to have quite a lot of fun when I am gone.

Just wow.

Not to mention that "his people" are all white, European and "Christian".

Lord where do we begin?

I am at a loss as to how this Mr.Zirkle cracked open a Bible (if ever) to come to that conclusion!

And here was I thinking that "my people" was my neighbor (as defined in the Bible)...

We can only hope Mr. Zirkle can read the Bible more sensibly one day. Who knows, he may discover that evil is the root of the creation of porn, and not the other way around.

(We will tell him Jesus was a Jew later. Shhhh!!!!!)

Frank,

I have not yet begun to astound. You're not listening to what I'm saying. I regret that I lack both the intelligence and charisma to explain my positions more clearly. Let me try again; however, I think that you probably will misunderstand this attempt as well.

I am BOTH a Jewish Zionist and Nazi sympathizer. They are both victims of the GPD. One of the prime strategic modus operandi of the GPD is to entice the world into a continual adultery-murder cycle that he has been promoting since at least the time of the first recorded polygamist, Tubal-Cain, the 7th from Adam, who announced the "77 fold" revenge blood feuds that made God repent that he had made man and persuaded him to engage in his "strange act" during the Great Deluge. The 2nd Angel's Message in Rev. 14:8 clearly refers to both porn and wrath, ie adultery and murder.

In other words, the GPD, who hates both Edenic institutions of marriage and Sabbath, intentionally incites Jews into anti-marriage porn-prostitution and then incites Nazi-minded folk to rise up in murderous hate to defend the honor of their daughters, wives, mothers, grand-mothers, and unfortunately great grand-mothers. In the process, the GPD gets to wipe out more and more of the remaining Sabbath keepers from the planet. The GPD genocided out about 1/3 of the planetarian Sabbath Keepers just over a generation ago.

The holycaust deniers have plenty of critics. The unholy pornocaust deniers need more critics.

Holy Spirit, help me here. Give me the gift of teaching and eloquence to explain what I know in my heart to be truth.

Frank,

I take your above comment as an invitation to respond to race issues beyond just the Nazi ones.

Consider
1. Dan. 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Did God limit that text to ONLY Humpty Dumpty? Maybe. How confident can we be that there is 0% chance of a literal level application?

2. Luke 21:10
"Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:" In Greek, isn't that "ethnos" shall rise against "ethnos?" cf Matt 24:7; Mk 13:8;

When that happens agains, wouldn't it be less painful if the races were "kodeshed" (separated, segregated or holy) under the principle that is honored in International Law and termed the human right of "self-determination" of all peoples. Why must blacks and whites be court forcibly integrated when Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Muslims in Pakistan and Native Americans get to exercise their human right of self-determination?

White culture is in crisis and it's even statistically worse in the African-American community where 80% of all Indiana black children are born out of wedlock, where 50% of all black teens, 14-19, have acquired at least 1 STD according to the centers for disease control and where more young black men are in prison and jail than in college. I've also heard that about 50% of young black men, 18-25, have been in the criminal justice system. These numbers much change.

Don't SDA churches, colleges (Oakwood v. Southern) and conferences like the Lake Conference substantially self-segregate? Is this really a case of gnats and camels or one of the pot and kettle?

I'll finish with this one:

Psalms 94:16
"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? [or] who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"

Respectfully,
Tony Zirkle

Mr. Zirkle needs a serious sit-down with a pastor. How could he even have spent one minute in SDA divinity school and come up with this theology?
His time would have been better spent studying History.

Never mind. This one is surely over now!

Galatians 3:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am quite sure it is clear Mr. Zirkle (who has stolen the title "physician of society" from Jesus and bestowed it upon himself) needs much prayer and even more guidance.

I am not sure how Mr. Zirkle has snuck into the church, but we cannot say Ellen White did not warn us that there would be a shaking!

Pat:

You wrote,
"Tony,
Am I to understand that the "Jewish dominated media" are the only ones who have properly taught us to hate "Nazi thought" and that the "porn capitalist" are all Jewish?
What in hades are you talking about? I suggest you need some serious down time and reflection Tony."

No, the Jewish mob did not have complete control over the porn businss. There was a very substantial Italian Mafia connection as well. One only has to read the credits at the end of a porn movie to notice the large percentage of Jewish and Italian names involved. The head of the Reagan-Bush era Department of Justice Child Exploitation and Obscenity unit was the one to tipped me off initially to the fact that I was prosecuting "just another Jewish adult book store" and that there were a large number of "Italian" sounding names involved. On the other hand, the Irish gangs rarely got involved in prostitution because their culture considered prostitution wrong. I obtained my info from a History Channel series on the mafia and mob.

The lesson I gather is that societies should not discriminate against minorities, like both Jews and Cathlics were in this nation, becasue those discriminated against cultures will risk acquiring a culture that disrespects law and order and will be more susceptible to organized crime.

Now, Jews probably have a much lower percentage of control over porn because it's been effectively legalized any hoodlum who has a video camera and an Internet connection can get involved in promoting the GPD's most effective weapon of mass destruction.

Remember, the GPD enticed Eve with lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life. Restless modern day Eve porn stars find their equivalent temptations on the sets of the porn capitalists.

Informationally yours,
Tony Zirkle

Anonymous11:

You wrote:

"I am not sure how Mr. Zirkle has snuck into the church, but we cannot say Ellen White did not warn us that there would be a shaking!"

I "snuck" into the church through 4 prior generations, so I guess that makes me 5th generation. The church is free to disfellowship me at any time. I make no claim to fully live up to the light I know, so sufficient cause might exist; however, I don't believe in public confession, so you'll have to do your own research.

I highly doubt that I'm of sufficient import to "shake" the church. That would be a grandiose thought worthy of a bipolar diagnosis.

Abby normally yours,
Tony Zirkle

Boy, this looks like a long weekend. . .

I do hope that this experience at least gives us all a chance to rethink how we use strings of words - from translations of the Bible to Ellen White - in order to form our morality.

The preceding mix of sexual moralizing, beast imagery, and a priori reasoning just doesn't emerge out of a vacuum. While this is an extreme embodiment - the patterns in play are all around us.

Well Alexander,
If you saw the National Geographic documentary "Inside a Cult", you would see another example of such confusion coming out (out, thankfully!) of the Church. I can only hope after a loss in November (not that I expect him to win the primary), Mr. Zirkle does not try to become a minister!
He doesn't even seem to know who his "brother" or his "neighbor" is in the Bible. Yikes!

I highly doubt that I'm of sufficient import to "shake" the church.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Zirkle,
That is decidedly NOT how it works at all. You can be sure it won't be one man doing the shaking, but one of many. I propose you leave that number and join the other number (the remnant). I'm just saying...
You might wish to crack open a Bible (but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit this time) and try to find out who "your people" are supposed to be (as a Christian). That would be a good start.

Not impressed with either Anonymous or Alexander's lovingkindness, patience and christian charity toward Mr. Zirkle. Not impressed with this blog's love for mankind in general, regardless of it's protestations of inclusiveness.

Tony said,

"The church is free to disfellowship me at any time"

Anonymous@11 said,

"Mr. Zirkle needs a serious sit-down with a pastor."

I hope you're going to church Tony. We discipline locally within Adventism not online. The community that matters to you is your home church not us. I hope you're spending lots of time with your pastor and church!

Tony,

Respectfully as well, you need to review the difference between biblical exegesis and eisegesis. What you are reading into these texts as present application is mystifying...and potentially dangerous.

And using the church's segregated conference structure as an example for societal segregation? And, being an Adventist automatically disqualifies one from disagreeing with this ecclesiastically or socially? And such social policy will cure the ills of the black and white communities?

Hardly! It was done before. It was called separate but unequal!

Frank

The "my people" comment was in response to Cliff Goldstein's claiming Jews were "his" people.

It's not a proper debate tactic to misrepresent people's positions. Of course I know my neighbor is every living soul. That has nothing to do with this topic. In Israel's economy, the 12 tribes were given segregated lands so they could self-detrmine. Upon every 49-50 years jubilee, the land had to be returned to its rightful tribe.

If I didn't care about black people, I would selfishly keep my mouth shut and let the media entice them to culturally self-lynch, but I do care and will protest the media influencal crime promotion in the black community.

My position is not for self-determination segregation at this time. I have stated that numerous times. My focus is on the U.S. Supreme Court who has made prosecuting the porn capitalists so near impossible that nearly all prosecutors gave up a generation ago and the murder capitalists who profit from teaching violence to our youth. Even the liberal Ralph Nader understand's porn's connection to violence. He stated, "Corporate porn teaches violence to our children. It must be stopped."

However, if we can not politically storm the U.S. Supreme Court Bastille, many of us may come to the inescapable conclusion a generation from now that court-forced integration of whites and blacks in the midsts of an undisciplined democracy where no minimal standars of human conduct are enforced, turned out to be a terrible social experiment of the highest degree. The Centers for Disease Control now predicts that 80% of all American women will have acuired the Human Papilloma Virus by the age of 50. The black plague did not even reach that percentage.

Y'all might be interested to know that a very top Adventist scholar recently told me that "Americans are naive" about racial integration/inter-marrying. He said there's no Biblical command for racial inter-marrying. He then reminded me that Peter was the apostle to the Jews and Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He then cited the recent situaiton in South Africa. I'd add to that the Zimbabwee debacle since Mugabee seized the white farms.

Are we not warned to be equally yoked?

On the other had, I need to spend some more time looking into Miriam's punishment for criticizing Moses' inter-racial (or was it?) relationship. There's also Joseph's Egyptian wife who had Ephraim who was blessed. Of the 4 or so women specifically mentioned in Jesus' geneology in Matthew one, weren't some of them inter-racial or were they?

What I'm arguing is that there may be legitimate arguments on both sides of the debate, so we need to at least have the debate in an open an honest manner without jumping to wild mis-conclusions and mis-representing people's actual positions.

It may turn out that while integration sounds all warm and fuzzy, the social costs may very well be too high to bear in the long run. ie If you believe the message that I received from the porn capitalists in my days as a prosecutor, many young white women have a near irresistable attraction and desire to fornicate with black men and give them more intense worship than the pope does the Virgin. As offensive as that may sound to both you and me, that was the exact impression I received. Addiction is a hard habit to break, especially for manic-depressive, drug addicted white teens who suffer from the bipolar symptom of hyper-sexuality. That's enough for this post.

Tony Zirkle

Tony,

I happen to be Italian. So, it's not only Jews and blacks that are prone to lawless behavior because of societal mishap, but now it's us too!

Guess I'll have to inform the family...

Frank

Johnny,

If he is spending much time with his local pastor and congregation, something is getting lost in the translation.

Thanks...

Frank

Frank,

I was waiting for soemone to call me a proof-texter, but you instead referred to exegesis. I do agree that proper exegesis can save one from many errors; howevever, a strict application of exegesis would put many New Testament writers in hot water if I understood Dr. Regazzi at Andrews correctly. The distinction here is that Biblical writers are inspired, so they are not bound by human constructs of principles of exegesis.

Furthermore, a strick exegesis of Isaiah 53 might very well lead one to conclude that Jesus did "see his seed", sperma in Hebrew according to Dr. Davidson, with Mary Magdalene. If one of the exegetical principles is to take a passage literally unless it is clearly intended to be symbolis, we unexegetically spiritualize that part of Isa. 53 away to refer to the church, as I'm guessing most of us would conclude since no Adventist I know, including myself, would even consider that Jesus had literal children.

Mr. Zirkle,
The Bible is clear. The problem is sin, not "integration".

Secondly, the text says: (2 Corinthians 6)

"14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?..."

(And how after reading that we are all "one in Christ Jesus", can you call the "races" (Whatever that word means. Biologists and anthropologists have held for some time now that the concept of "race" does not fit humans. There is no such thing as "race" as we know it when it comes to humans.) "unequal"?)

Somewhere along the line you seem to have stumbled.

Frank,

You wrote:

"Tony,
I happen to be Italian. So, it's not only Jews and blacks that are prone to lawless behavior because of societal mishap, but now it's us too! Guess I'll have to inform the family...
Frank"

Actually, the GPD doesn't discriminate. He wants all of God's children. I'm talking here about cultural trends. Since we're on the topic, we can throw in AMPs (Asian Massage Parlors).

Don't for a second think I don't have criticism for white men because they are overwhelming the vast majority of child molesters, at least in this nation. In 3 prosecutor's offices, I can't recall seeing a single case of a black man even being accused of molesting a child under 8.

People are just way too sensitive, or may I've been calloused by the GPD. If I could send you all to law school so that you could learn to debate the merits of an issue on facts instead of getting emotionally offended wihtout facts, I would. Never mind. Law school was a very spiritually void experience. I got out of there a year early as fast as I could. Indiana University even banned the military from recruiting on campus becasue of the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy on homosexuality.

Tony
At least here you come clean and say that you're a nazi sympathizer. To the local TV-station you pretended that you didn't know what the nazi party stood for.

Instead of pursuing your red porn herring, I'd like to repeat an earlier request: Why doesn't it bother you to stand under a picture of Adolph Hitler and rail against Jews? What is it that you sympathize with in nazism? And also, why destroy your political career on something as insane as participating in celebrating Der Fuhrer's birthday?

Of course some folks will arrive on this thread and wonder why folks are talking with Tony, while others will "not be impressed" with a harsh tone taken.

I absolutely reject Tony's Nazi-sympathizing, but I believe in free speech and the intelligence of the Spectrum community.

More interestingly than the desperate solipsism above, there are bigger issues emerging here. In fact, as Tony writes:

"a very top Adventist scholar recently told me that "Americans are naive" about racial integration/inter-marrying. He said there's no Biblical command for racial inter-marrying. He then reminded me that Peter was the apostle to the Jews and Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He then cited the recent situaiton in South Africa"(sic).

Think about that for a minute.

An Adventist "scholar" actually Biblically encouraged him.

I hope to God that it was not at Andrews. (It's my alma mater too, and I can think of two profs whose historical-grammatical hermeneutic would at least confuse the issue.)

As easy as it would be to dismiss Tony as outside the norm, the reality is that he's not so much extreme, as not cloaking his fears in coded language. Look at the way that he's appropriated the language and sex/text mix of apocalyptic evangelism. (I can almost hear someone invoking the "great porn dragon" in a church somewhere.)

The fact is that not too long ago most Adventists sounded like John Hagee calling Catholicism the whore of Babylon. And the reality is that many probably don't so much reject this textually inaccurate mix of sex and xenophobia as just try to smile and pass the Special K loaf.

How does textual literalism get us away from here?

Frank,
I don't think Tony has been to church or talked with his pastor. I do think he'd be better off there than here. I don't think I can add anything else to this conversation. I was disgusted when I saw the video when it was first posted and I'm disgusted now.

Alexander,

Thanks for bringing up Pastor Hagee. We should all pray for him and be thankful we're not deceived with dispensationalist, geographic and secular Israel obsessed, theology. The war in Revelation 12, and the dragon's 2 allies he calls up in Chapter 13, is against those who "keep the commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus." Since secular or Jewish Israel does not have the faith of Jesus presently in substantial numbers, geographic Israel could not be the direct target but only a diversionary tactic to get to Sabbath keeping Christians.

Additionally, one of my good frieds, a current SDA pastor, just called me tonight and reminded me that in Rev. 12, the great "orgy" dragon is mention as follows:

"12:9 And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
...
12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath [ORGY?], because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
...
12:17 And the dragon was wroth [ORGY?] with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Can someone verify if my pastor friend's comment that the dragon's "wrath" in verse 17 is "orgy" in Greek. If so, why would the great dragon "orgy" with the woman as his prime identified "war" tactic?

If wrath is "orgy" in Greek, then Rev. 14:8, the 2nd angel, would read, "wine of the orgy of her porn"

This pastor friend pointed out that Satan was infuriated when he was not included in the plans for the human race, and if I understood him correctly, this is in part why the GPD attacks marriage so severly because he and his demons have not been permitted to create life and propogate." Perhaps the pastor will post anonymously here.

Aage Rendalen,

You wrote:

"Tony
At least here you come clean and say that you're a nazi sympathizer. To the local TV-station you pretended that you didn't know what the nazi party stood for.
Instead of pursuing your red porn herring, I'd like to repeat an earlier request: Why doesn't it bother you to stand under a picture of Adolph Hitler and rail against Jews? What is it that you sympathize with in nazism? And also, why destroy your political career on something as insane as participating in celebrating Der Fuhrer's birthday?"

I did not pretend to not know what the Nazi party stood for to the TV-station. I still have the e-mail from the Indiana NSWP state leader who advised me not to call them Nazis because they were different. I didn't really understand what the difference at the time was and the press jumped to wild conclusions and tried with success I might add to make me look foolish and ignorant. I later learned that Nazis are a term limited to German nationalism. National Socialists are for all white people including the English, French, Italians, Poles, Spanish, & Russians, Greeks, etc. for example. People just knee jerk react and draw their own conclusions without investigating the facts. It's the politics of gotcha gaff. My statement was accurate as I understood it at the time to be a distinction between Nazis and National Socialists.

Alright dude, we got your agenda.

Anonymous 11:

You wrote:

"Mr. Zirkle,
The Bible is clear. The problem is sin, not "integration".
Secondly, the text says: (2 Corinthians 6)
"14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?..."
(And how after reading that we are all "one in Christ Jesus", can you call the "races" (Whatever that word means. Biologists and anthropologists have held for some time now that the concept of "race" does not fit humans. There is no such thing as "race" as we know it when it comes to humans.) "unequal"?) Somewhere along the line you seem to have stumbled."

Yes, I have stumbled upon some issues that need to be addressed. In law school, we learned that when someone argues something is "clear" it probably isn't, at least according to them. Saying something is clear does not make it crystal.

If integration is leading to the sin of adultery, the the problem is both primarily sin, and to a much lesser degree integration.

Moreover, the absense of evidence is not evidence. The passage on not being yoked unequally does not limit the yoke reference to just believing or not believing. Married believing couples could be unequally yoked educationally, culturally, spiritually, financially or even physically.

On this last point, Abraham Lincoln, initially a colonizationist, predicted that black and whites, BECAUSE OF THE PHYSICAL DIFFERENCE, would never be able to live together.

“I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people. And I will say in addition to this that there is a PHYSICAL DIFFERENCE between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. … And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” – Abraham Lincoln in his fourth debate with Stephen Douglas in the campaign for the United States Senate on September 18th of 1858.

“I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.” – Abraham Lincoln in the fourth debate with Stephen Douglas.

Anonymous 11,

Furthermore, if you're over 30, you can read this:
Ezekial 16:26 "Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger." I once saw David Duke on a tv interview and I think he translated it "flesh of asses." Is that really the literal translation? In any event, that text does not sound like a ringing endorsement for Jungle Fever to me. I do also recall flipping radio channels and hearing the Jewish radio jock Howard Stern intentionally promoting a blacks and blondes porn site.

Yes, sin is the problem, but the porn capitalists are intentionally targeting black men and white women for porn-prostitution, so if we can not legally control the problem then self-determination kodesh might be the only remedy to stop the Wilt Chamberlain 20,000 harlets culture that is such a problem that it would make a Pharaoh or a Sultan blush.

You also stated:
"(And how after reading that we are all "one in Christ Jesus", can you call the "races" (Whatever that word means. Biologists and anthropologists have held for some time now that the concept of "race" does not fit humans. There is no such thing as "race" as we know it when it comes to humans.) "unequal"?) Somewhere along the line you seem to have stumbled."

You mix some vague questions with undocumented and unexplained statements here, so it's difficult to respond. If your science non-falsely called quotes are accurate, then why would Jesus mention that "ethnos shall rise against ethnos?" Didn't Jesus understand more biology than those works you are referring to here?

Somebody tell me what this means:
"Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men." {1SP 78.2}

My guess is that EGW was referring to orangutans which literally means "Jungle Man." At least we hope she was - right?

"orangutan

1699, from Du. orang-outang, from Malay orang utan, lit. "man of the woods," from orang "man" + utan, hutan "forest, wild." It is possible that the word originally was used by town-dwellers on Java to describe savage forest tribes of the Sunda Islands and that Europeans misunderstood it to mean the ape. The name is not now applied in Malay to the animal, but there is evidence that it was so in 17c."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orangutan

She also advised u to beware of people of my mis-education -like SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States).

"We are not to lean upon the policy of worldly lawyers. We must be humble men of prayer, not acting like those who are blinded by Satan's agencies. . . . " {UL 310.2}

Shalom,
Tony Zirkle

Aage Rendalen,

You wrote:

"Tony
...
Instead of pursuing your red porn herring, I'd like to repeat an earlier request: Why doesn't it bother you to stand under a picture of Adolph Hitler and rail against Jews? What is it that you sympathize with in nazism? And also, why destroy your political career on something as insane as participating in celebrating Der Fuhrer's birthday?"

Red Herring defined:
red herring
–noun 1. a smoked herring.
2. something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue. ..."

Porn is adultery, and it's part of the 10 words. Is not contending for the law the real issue at hand? Was not the law originally carved out of the blue stone saphire throne of God? If God banned porn adultery and wrote it on his own throne, I'd say he's taking the issue pretty seriously.

Furthermore,
1. Speaking in front of dead white men who know nothing in the grave does not bother me.
2. Stating facts does not constitute "railing."
3. Before there were Nazi doctors there were Jewish dildo doctors. As I said before adultery promotes murder. It's a non-Red Herring adulter-murder cycle conspiracy that dates back to at least Tubal-Cain.
4. I don't give a flying monkey about my political career. I'm commanded in scripture to seek a quiet and peaceful life and work with my hands. Right now, I'm peacefully and quietly in my Indianapolis law office working for Jesus with my typing hands.

Respectfully,
Tony Zirkle

Looks to me like Tony is right about one thing, for several of you are calling him a Nazi sympathizer as if it were a bad thing, when he predicted your misunderstanding him:

"Let me try again; however, I think that you probably will misunderstand this attempt as well.

I am BOTH a Jewish Zionist and Nazi sympathizer. They are both victims of the GPD."

I think Tony uses phrases that have an ambiguous meaning to shock the listener/reader, perhaps to draw attention to what he is saying. (Jesus used that tactic in his parables as well, didn't he?). In this case, Tony calls himself a "Nazi sympathizer" and so Alex and others respond that at last/least he's admitted it, since the most common use of that term refers to someone who agrees with the Nazi philosophy/program. But I don't read where Tony is saying he is sympathetic to the Nazi party platform and what it has done. I see him saying that he is sympathetic to Nazis--and to Jews, Asians, and all others affected by the GPD (as he calls it). In this sense, I'm reminded of the writer of Hebrews 4:15 who says that Jesus can "sympathize" with our weaknesses because he was tempted as we are.

I don't agree with Tony. But in reading the above conversation, it seems like some of you are so hysterical you aren't hearing what he is saying. Why not debate the real arguments, not the ones created by misconstruing words?

(Now you can all shoot me for being a sympathizer of a Nazi sympathizer...!).

Also, I know Alex knows that the Whore of Babylon is not an Adventist invention. These ideas go back at least to Luther.

Tony,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you are in agreement with Abraham Lincoln(pre-Emancipation Proclamation) that because of physical differences, blacks and whites cannot live together in equality. Do you believe that whites are genetically and intellectually superior?

Do you believe that Thurgood Marshall should never have sat on the Supreme Court because of his color and "inherent inferiority?" Or that Barak Obama should not be elected president because of his color and "inherent inferiority?" Do you believe that inter-racial couples are guilty of some sort of immorality that is part of a "porn conspiracy," if they are married?

I hope not...

frank

For those who have never heard of proof texing, this might be an example:

Gen. 3:16 "Unto the WOMAN he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy DESIRE [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Dan 11:37 "Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the DESIRE of WOMEN," referring to the king of the north

Therfore, one could argue that the king of the north would disregard, or attack possibly, the marriage covenant. He might even introduce or defend with constitutional protections "divorce aids" which provokes men to jealousy.

cf. Eze. 8:5 "Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this IMAGE of JEALOUSY in the entry."

cf. Num 5:13 "And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and [there be] no witness against her, neither she be taken [with the manner];
5:14 And the spirit of JEALOUSY come upon him, and he be JEALOUS of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of JEALOUS come upon him, and he be JEALOUS of his wife, and she be not defiled::

cf. Num. 5:29 "This [is] the law of JEALOUSIES, when a wife goeth aside [to another] instead of her husband, and is defiled;"

cf. Ezekiel 16:15 "But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the HARLOT because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy FORNICATIONS on every one that passed by; his it was.
16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy HIGH PLACES with divers colours, and playedst the HARLOT thereupon: [the like things] shall not come, neither shall it be [so].
16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself IMAGES OF MEN, and didst commit WHOREDOM with them,"

Was Ezekiel referring to divorce aids as one of the root causes of the 70 years of slavery?

Berchard of Worms, about a generation before the crusades began, implored women to set aside their divorce aids.

This line of argumentn would need to be unpacked more than I can in one post.

Happy Sabbath!
Tony Zirkle

RT: Yep, and Luther spun out some Jew-blaming scripture-based theories too. Houston, it looks like we have a pattern.

Frank,

You wrote:
"Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you are in agreement with Abraham Lincoln(pre-Emancipation Proclamation) that because of physical differences, blacks and whites cannot live together in equality. Do you believe that whites are genetically and intellectually superior?
Do you believe that Thurgood Marshall should never have sat on the Supreme Court because of his color and "inherent inferiority?" Or that Barak Obama should not be elected president because of his color and "inherent inferiority?" Do you believe that inter-racial couples are guilty of some sort of immorality that is part of a "porn conspiracy," if they are married? I hope not..."

How many slaves did the Emancipation Proclamation free? Was it zero? Lincoln wanted to ship them back to Africa. My position is that blacks have sweated, bleed, fought and died for this nation and deserve a proportionate share of its real estate. Blacks were promised 40 acres and a mule, not 40 or 4,000 white women as a porn mule.

Interracial marriage is not the offensive point that the inter-racial candy store fetish frenzy that is taking place now. I saw this frenzy first hand at Georgetown which, like Andrews, had students from over 100 differenct nations. I had a roomate that had an Asian fetish and a half dozen or so would follow him around. One even approached me and handed me the key to her room. I gave it right back. Sorry, not my vice. There appears to me to be a dating power physical imbalance that goes in the hen pecking order of blacks to whites to Asians who then manufacture divorce aids (ie a good chunk of Eastern China) and send them back to white women to keep the cycle going.

The issue in race relations is not intellectual genetics. It's culture that is intentionally mis-educated differently among different cultures. Look at the messages ganster rap teaches young black men about the value of God's feminine temples. Actually, guard the avenues to your soul and avoid that altogether.

The fundamental issue in race relations is the sin of ADULTERY. Solve the INTERRACIAL ADULTERY problem and racisim will substantially go the way of the dodo. However, criticizing racism while constitutionally protecting the porn capitalists who intentionally promote inter-racial adultery is a fruitless endeavor. I'll never forget this non-expert witness who testified in a Cincinnatti, Ohio obscenity trial (I was sent there to observe atty porn defense atty Louis Sirkin whom I thought I'd later litigate against) for the defendant who sold black men-white women videos that the dozen or so black men who fornicated with this one white women in that video were "nice men" and that the video was not criminal because videos like that promoted positive race relations. The jury bought it, even with a black African-American pastor on the jury panel, and rendered a not guilty verdict.

Unbelievable!!!!

One South Bend African-American media interviewer may have explained it best when he told me that a generation ago black men wanted white women because "You want what you can't have." Now that they can get them, "The question is, how much can you get."

In sum, ADULTERY causes RACISM. Maybe I have Aspbergers. I've heard they don't have enough sense to not speak the truth. Although, I did take the MMPI psych exam at Annapolis and was informed that the test showed no evidence of problems. They then informed me that I was "too smart for the test" and that I had scored perfect on the L test. I guess the argument was that if something wasn't wrong with you, you wouldn't be there. Anyway, that tmi (too much info).

Tony Zirkle

We need to define what Anti-Semitism is and what it is not. Do we take one sentence from a person, and if it is not immediatly apparent to be pro-Jewish, then that person is automatically labeled an anti-Semite. For example, EGW wrote:

"Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, 'His blood be on us, and on our children.' That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a PERPETUAL curse." {DA 739.1}

That word "perpetual" is striking. I thought Ezekiel said the sins of the fathers would not fall on the sons. What's up with that?

On the other hand, she also wrote:

"At the time when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple laid in ruins, many thousands of the Jews were sold to serve as bondmen in heathen lands. Like wrecks on a desert shore, they were scattered among the nations. For eighteen hundred years the Jews have wandered from land to land throughout the world, and in no place have they been given the privilege of regaining their ancient prestige as a nation. Maligned, hated, persecuted, from century to century theirs has been a heritage of suffering. {GW 397.1}
"Notwithstanding the awful doom pronounced upon the Jews as a nation at the time of their rejection of Jesus of Nazareth, there have lived from age to age MANY NOBLE, God-fearing Jewish men and women who have suffered in silence. God has comforted their hearts in affliction, and has beheld with pity their terrible situation. He has heard the agonizing prayers of those who have sought Him with all the heart for a right understanding of His word. Some have learned to see in the lowly Nazarene whom their forefathers rejected and crucified, the true Messiah of Israel. As their minds have grasped the significance of the familiar prophecies so long obscured by tradition and misinterpretation, their hearts have been filled with gratitude to God for the unspeakable gift He bestows upon every human being who chooses to accept Christ as a personal Saviour. {GW 397.2}
"It is to this class that Isaiah referred in his prophecy, 'A remnant shall be saved.'" [See Isaiah 10:20-22.]

Now that sounds pro-Jewish to me, so EGW was NOT an anti-Semite.

Respectfully submitted,
Tony Zirkle

Here's some more evidence to support what I'm saying here, and it's straight from the Jewish Quarterly. It also references Desmond Ford's son, Luke:

"According to one anonymous industry insider quoted by E. Michael Jones in the magazine Culture Wars (May 2003), ‘the leading male performers through the 1980s came from secular Jewish upbringings and the females from Roman Catholic day schools’. The standard porn scenario became as a result a Jewish fantasy of schtupping the Catholic shiksa.

Furthermore, as Orthodox Jew and porn gossipmonger Luke Ford explains on his website (lukeford.net): ‘Porn is just one expression of [the] rebellion against standards, against the disciplined life of obedience to Torah that marks a Jew living Judaism.’ It is also a revolt against (often middle-class) parents who wish their children to be lawyers, doctors and accountants. As performer Bobby Astyr put it on the same website, ‘It’s an “up yours” to the uncles with the pinky rings who got down on me as a kid for wanting to be musician.’"

http://www.jewishquarterly.org/article.asp?articleid=38

All the librarires in the world could not contain the biographies of the victims of the GPD. We can now safely replace the Jewish male performs of the 1980s with the male black performers of the 2000s and the female Catholics school girls with the very cream of the white crop, both Catholic and Protestant.

Respectfully,
Tony Zirkle

Tony
This is insanity of clinical magnitude! Goebbels made more sense than you do.

Hey Tony, if you've got time, does evolutionary theory and a homosexual culture starve or feed the GPD?

Aage:

Yes, I'm trying to start an anti-porn Internet debate clinic. I'll assign more homework until someone smarter than me gets with the program and fixes these sin problems. John the Baptist got his head served up on a platter for protesting the king's adultery, so telling me a dead familial-homicidial Nazi makes more sense than me pails in comparison. Sticks and stones my friend.

Did Hitler get "racial purity" from the Jews?

"Hitler adopted Jewish "purity of race" as nothing less than a model for his own weltanschauung regarding the necessity of the racial purity of Aryans."
http://www.porges.net/JewsInVienna/5WasYounghitlerAntiSemite.html

I was looking for the quote from Mein Kempf where Hitler claimed it was observing Jewish pimps in Vienna that "caused a chill" to run down his spine and made him an anti-Semite. If I later find it, I'll post it. As I said before, adultery incites murder. I'm arguing for a reform in Jewish culture so that they don't specialize in adultery glorifying businesses and media and for a reform in white Nazi-type hate speech which too often has gotten acted out upon in history.

I just found this quote from "Mein Kampt" which interestingly, literally means, my struggle or "my jihad," and I was startled. Maybe I should actually read this book. I've only read about a half dozen or so paragraphs to this point and found the extended sentence structures mentally taxing to follow probably to as great a degree as Hobbbs' Leviathian.

"If the Jew with the help of his Marxist creed is victorious over the peoples of this world, then his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity; then this planet will travel through the ether as it did millions of years ago, devoid of men. Eternal Nature avenges itself mercilessly on the transgression of its commandments. Thus I believe today that I am acting according to the will of the almighty Creator: when I defend myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/hitler1.html

Yikes! That's strong stuff. He actually believed he was doing the work of the Lord? Weren't we warned that there would come a time when some would claim they were doing to work of the Lord?

History repeats itself. There's nothing new under the sun. Actually, it was Julius Streicher who cause a nation to hate the Jews, according to the book title, by continually referencing the wealthy Jews who would prey on Christian women.

The risk I see in this nation is potentially to African-American men. There's a strong hate for blacks in the Mexican community and it's vice versa. As they immigrate and become more powerful, the Latin Kings type gangs are potentially going to cause ever increasing pain for the black community as one African-American told me that "They're moving into our neighborhoods and setting up businesses where ours don't succeed."

Pat Buchannan once stated that there's already a black-brown war going on in Los Angeles. Wasn't there just a 300 or so student high school inter-racial fight in L.A.? The prisons very often have to be segregated by gangs and race.

Blacks and whites to a large degree can't control themselves sexually in each other's presence, so God may be systematically handing this nation over to the Latins who are currently more meek.

Goebells poisoned his wife and his 5 or 6 kids and committed suicide if I recall correctly. That makes more sense than what I'm talking about? Man, I really do have no charisma and I definitely do not have the gift of teaching.

Racism, as least as I understand it's popular definition, exists at Andrews. The first time I ever heard the phrase, "Once you go black, you NEVER come back" was at the lunch table in Andrews cafeteria while I was sitting with members of my flag football team and when the other student who made the comment observed a white girl hanging out with some male black students. My impression from that statement was that white men, after seeing a white girl with a black guy, often instantly place them into an "untouchable pariah" category and want nothing to do with them. Then, someone joked, "What do you call 10 black guys and one white guy?" A football team. "What do you call 5 black guys and one white guy?" A basketball team.

At Georgetown, the student's had a term for the one white basketball player, "The TWG." Token White Guy. Because of Title IX, Georgetown axed the wrestling program which I participated in at Annapolis, and I was recruited by several of the cheerleaders to join the squad. I recall once when the "TWG" made a basket. The overwhelmingly white student crowd went nuts.

I also recall one of my roomates at Georgetown talking about his experience in visiting a local adultery book store. He said this white girl has specifically requested a "black dildo" and that she had told the cashier, "This will do just fine." He then questioned what the difference the color made.

Clinically yours,
Tony Zirkle

Alexander:

You asked,

"Hey Tony, if you've got time, does evolutionary theory and a homosexual culture starve or feed the GPD?"

I would say it definitely feeds the GPD.

Darwin's "1844" error laid much of the foundation for Nitsche's "superman" theories which eventually influenced Hitler.

If man evolved and was not created in God's image as male and female, then homosexuality would not be the abomination to God that it definitely is.

Interestingly, scripture only references "smoke of a great furnace" twice. Once is in Gen. 19 which deals with sodom. The other is in Revelation 9 which John Wesley, the Methodist founder, and even our Uriah Smith connected to militant Islam.

I'm reminded of Iran president Ahmadinejad's visit to Columbia University recently when he stated, "We do not have this same homosexual problem that you do in this nation." He did not say there were "no" homosexuals in Iran. He said it was not the same level of problem as the U.S. has. The liberal press twisted his words to be that there were no homosexuals in Iran and then mocked him incessantly.

Ahmadinejad almost prayed for the return of the Mahdi or messiah at the United Nations. Bin Laden also prayed that he did not want to be deceived. Where are our Adventist Navy SEALS who, like Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar, will go witness to these deceived souls?

Back to the question, the GPD is having quite a feast with one of evoluiton's spawnign product of homosexual sodomy. I had a political theor professor at Georgetown who could hardly spend 50 minutes without trying to brainwash us to be pro-gay with her constant rants of "homophobic." She also couldn't stop reminding us that the idea that black men are hyper-sexual and can't control themselves was a "myth," a "myth," and a "myth." She also infomed us, why I do not know, that about every year, someone would come out with another book citing Clarence Thomas' porn video rental records. So, I decided to go to law school. and look what happened to me.

Peace, Shalom and Grace,
Tony Zirkle

Me thinks he doth protest TOO much! Hmmm....

Tony,

You still didn't answer my questions about Thurgood Marshall and Barak Obama. And frankly, after reading your last response, I don't want or need to know. This sounds like insanity.

I'm done!

Thanks...

Frank

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

We have other things to do now. Let us acknowledge that Mr. Zirkle's actions were unconventional, perhaps to the point of censure.

However, let us also acknowledge that any censure of Mr. Zirkle must come from his local congregation. Nothing he said in those videos was illegal. I'm not quite sure if what he said reflects Adventist or Christian theology correctly.

That question, as we and he have acknowledged, rests with his pastor and his congregation.

"Every article you may write may be all truth, but one drop of gall in it will be poison to the reader. One reader will discard all your good and acceptable words because of that drop of poison. Another will feed on the poison, for he loves such words."
-Ellen White, Letter 91, 1899 (From Counsels to Writers and Editors)

The gall I see here can be seen in Mr. Zirkle's choice of words and speaking engagements, AND in the sometimes intemperate reactions of Spectrum posters.

We are all chasing truth. One of the aspects of Mr. Zirkle's chase is the twisting of sex and race through and by pornography to destroy lives. I don't object to that. I object to where his chase takes him, but that's between him, his congregation, and God.

Respectfully,

Sam.

Samuel,

Tony said,

"The church is free to disfellowship me at any time"

We discipline locally within Adventism not online. The community that matters to Tony's life as a Seventh-day Adventist is his home church not any internet website.

Good pastoral counsel is not coercive and we can tell him he'd be better off ignoring the internet and spending time at church talking with his pastor but we shouldn't use that conviction to curtail his freedom to speak his mind.

This isn't a nanny-blog and we're all adults here. Tony has a right to "defend" himself however misguided and misdirected his attempt may be.

"Interracial adultery"?

What on earth is that?

I am out of here!

This is a bit too "Birth of a Nation" for me. Have you seen that film Mr.Zirkle? You must think it's a "documentary".

I sure do hope you manage to find the Lord one day.

Wow, by the tone of some of the comments, I would speculate that some folks who frequent this blog need to get a life, or at least a decent grip on life. May God help some of you, because by the tone of your comments, you are in dire need of help, and are apparently oblivious of that fact!

Anonymous 11,

You wrote:

""Interracial adultery"? What on earth is that? I am out of here! This is a bit too "Birth of a Nation" for me. Have you seen that film Mr.Zirkle? You must think it's a "documentary". I sure do hope you manage to find the Lord one day."

Do I really have to explain to you what interracial adultery is? You asked.

"Since 2002 Mandingo has focused mainly on INTERRACIAL PORNOGRAPHY, especially with models in their late teens and early twenties." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandingo_%28porn_star%29

So, this male black porn mule's professional job is to fornicate with late teen and early twenties non-black girls. I call him muledingbat because no real man would do what he does.

I have a copy of the "Birth of a Nation." It's hard to hear the words. Maybe I should watch it again because all I remember at this time is a bunch of guys in bed sheets riding around on horses. Why do you ask? Is it the WASP version of Schindler's List? BTW, the Imperial Wizard of the National Knights of the KKK wrote me a letter thanking me for calling for a debate on segregation. He said it "sure would solve a lot of problems" but that I was "about a hundred years too late."

I tried to get 12 KKKers and 12 ANSWPers to march with me in an anti-porn, pro-life parade where I'd top it off with a Brigade Adjutant testing of my lungs for the Class of 92 on the S. Bend court house steps, but the Klan and Nazis don't get along. I'm not sure if it's a protestant and Catholic thing, if its just that Europa still can't unite, or if the Nazis were correct in their theory that the Klan was infiltrated and was acting as a federal informant.

Incidentally, speaking of Europa, what a perfect mythical name for white women in today's porn society. Isn't there a statue called "The Rape of Europa?" Who gets raped more than white women in porn? Europa rode the beast Zeus. Sounds a bit like the Apocalypse to me. Does "eu" mean good? is "ropa" related to rape? I hope not because that would mean something like "good rape." Is it good to rape a white women. Let's change the subject because that a bit disturbingly loose and tangential even for me.

Say hi to C.G. for me.

Peace,
Frederick Anthony "Tony" Hvfvgpd VanNess Zirkle

Frank,

You wrote:

"Tony, You still didn't answer my questions about Thurgood Marshall and Barak Obama. And frankly, after reading your last response, I don't want or need to know. This sounds like insanity. I'm done! Thanks...Frank"

Sorry. I did answer it but my post didn't go through and when I tried to reconstruct my thoughts, I left that out. What I had said was that I have no problem with black U.S. Supreme Court judges. I've been practicing law for over 11 years and if I had ever treated a black person any differenctly, even once, I'm sure I would have been disbarred. As of right now, I've never had a single disciplinary violation. I'm sure the GPD will soon get me on something. I've served as not only the Lake Co., Indiana on call deputy to their Drug Task Force, but also as the deputy prosecutor assigned to both night courts in Gary where I was the only honky and where me and the black judge and all black staff would go pray for the nearly all black defendants who would come to our court. I recently handed over my Crown Point office to a black husband and wife attorney team. The male black attorney told me I had courage to raise the issues I did in order to try to help the black community.

I particularly did not like Marshall because he, along with Brennan, seemed to habitually pop up dissenting in criminal cases in order to make it more difficult to uphold criminal convictions. I wondered if his racial politics interferred with him seeing the position that I take and that's of an original intent, strict constructionist. If the Constitution is really living then it only means what the current judges say it does, and that puts all our right in jeopardy.

I've added more here than I had before now that I'm reflecting more. What I had said is that I have no problem with black judges, unless they are used by the GPD to make issues like L.D.S. (not the Mormans and don't look it up) a household name. BTW, why is Obama considered black? Isn't he just as much white? What % of black makes one black or does any touch "gall" the whole mix? I seem to recall that it was Plessy v. Ferguson where the test case was 1/16th black but was actually blond haired and blue eyed. I may have my cases mixed up.

(BTW, since we're on SCOTUS cases, who forgot to tell that mixed up lawyer who argued for Texas against Roe v. Wade not to start your oral argument by trying to crack a sexist joke before the U.S. Supreme Court? Didn't anyone tell him to read up on his Aristotle and that it takes pathos, logos and ethos to effectively win a difficult argument?)

There is an argument to the contrary for racial impurity. An Adventist doctor once told me that when canines of diverse genes are mixed they are stronger. The in-breeding Humpty Dumptiets did propogate hemophilia. Maybe that's why African-Americans are the master physical race. They have 80% plus mix of white blood according to my I.U. Sociology book and have another strong mix of Native American blood.

Did that answer your question?
The proud father of 3 inter-racial/cultural Jewish-Christian children who are marching to beats 1, 2, 3, and 4 and who will hopefully differentially distinguish between the holy and the profane if I have any say about the matter; otherwise, they will be deficient.

Even though it was my worse grade in the seminary, I am so glad I took black preaching.

Adultery incites murder. Murder is incited by adultery. Incite murder? How? Promote adultery. Adultery makes a man want to murder. Holy Spirit help me here. Adultery and murder go together like peas and carrots. Adultery is pregnant with the seeds of murder. Can I get two witnesses from the OT and the NT? First note. Last note. Yes, from Genesis to Revelation, scripture resonates with a mega phone the intimite, close, intertwined, incipient, inter-mingling relationship between adultery and murder. and a ratty-tat-tat and a ritty-tat tang.

I'm reminded of manic-depressive Larry Flynt, who President Carter's sister temporarily semi-converted, who appeared in court for an obscenity case before a black judge with a shirt that read, "I wish I was black."

With the way popular culture is infecting young black men these days with pride, the original sinful trait identified in the ex-celestial choir leader, who would want to be a black man, unless of course you had no desire to enter those pearly gates. I fear that we have replaced the economic slave auction block with the far more deadly porn mule adultery auction block. While the former male white capitalist could only harm the black man's body and was not to be feared, the later white woman can throw both his body and soul into Gehenna where the worm dies not until it consumes completely.

Tony Zirkle

Is our worhip of God acceptable is we simply disagree with porn and don't accept it, or do we have a duty to root it out? Are we commanded to not tolerate porn in our society?

Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

"That women" reminds me of Bill Clinton's statement about his Jewish intern's role in making oral sex a household topic. I remember my Catholic lawyer boss going off on Clinton one day in the office because his young son heard the news and asked him what that was.

Maybe SDAs need to create some positive news like helping to convert some vile dictator somewhere so that when Britney Spears goes commando, it doesn't monopolize the news for two weeks.

Luke 3:7 "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Are vipers little GPDs and is wrath in Greek actually orgy? Are we to flee the orgy to come? 1 Cor. 6:18 "Flee fornication." ie porn Rev. 19:21 "all the fowls were filled with their flesh." What's the Gk for "filled?"

Now this is interesting. We SDAs talk of defining blasphemy by what the Jews thought it was, claiming to be God on earth and by claiming to forgive sins. We never talk about what the Jews thought the definition of a child of Satan was. Here it appears to be bastards who were banned from the congregation for 10 generations in the OT initially.

John 8:41 "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of FORNICATION; we have one Father, [even] God. 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the LUSTs of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

See, even Jesus connected lust with murder. I'm in good company here.

What's the opposite of lust? Content? Is lust connected with coveting, the 10th Word?

Prov. 6:32 "[But] whoso committeth ADULTERY with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul. 6:33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. 6:34 For JEALOUSY [is] the RAGE of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of VENGEANCE. 6:35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest CONTENT, though thou givest many gifts."

n.b. the connection between adultery, rage, vengeancce and lack of content-ness. Any wound but a wound of the heart as David would say.

Is the new form of human sacrifice a few thousand "Barely Legal" teens that the GPD demands to be sacrified to him as his daily-yearly mareh hazon?

Protest the GPD too much? Is that Hamlet? Well, maybe if the GPD can't keep me indifferent like most, he'll incite me to be a fanatic. I guess I'm a train wreck waiting to happen because I have no desire to stop protesting. It took one Christian fanatic to jump into the Coliseum to stop the games. It took a Christian Englishman to stop the English slave trade. If I'm just one Chrstian-wanna-be who protests the GPD, I will most likely fail. However, imagine a movement of 20 + million firmly united to no longer tolerate Jezebel, the porn promoter, in letter writing campaigns to adultery book stores, to politicians, and to local prosecutors, for example.

Imagine an unholy pornocaust museum on Andrews campus. Sex sells, and the whole world would visit. No lustful photos though, but documentaries of the boulevard of busted hearts and broken dreams that porn's GPD has lain waste. I am reminded of an evangelism tactic by Mark Finley where he scrolled texts on the state of the dead. It was very effective. Scroll the texts on high places, sacred poles, and groves where the governments who tore them down did what was "right in the sight of the Lord," "right in the sight of the Lord," and "right in the sight of the Lord."

Acceptance or tolerance, that is the question. If we tolerate it, do we not thereby accept it?

Tony Zirkle

Mr. Zirkle,

A longer response for the broader community follows this comment. I just wanted to say that I can appreciate the sense of righteousness with which you approach your positions. You truly believe you are doing the work of God. Martin Luther famously stated “Here I stand, I can do no other” when asked to recant his positions. But with equal fervor David Koresh made a similar stand as have countless religious leaders and followers who have literally died for what they believed to be true. And we are living in a time where we are not suffering for a lack of zealots and martyrs. What we feel to be true does not in itself create truth. And the experience of being persecuted for one’s beliefs does not validate the beliefs for which one is persecuted. I hope you will continue to be in dialogue with your community of faith as you navigate these issues.

Blessings to you,

Heather Isaacs Royce

I'm struggling to articulate--or even understand for myself--my feelings here. Though I am repelled by Mr. Zirkle’s statements on many different levels I am trying--at least in my own mind—to make space for some compassion in addition to the disgust I feel. It's something of a mental and spiritual exercise for myself at this point as Mr. Zirkle is this week's exaggerated stand-in for everything I have found myself banging my head against in the Church: the simplistic use of Scripture for the purpose of supporting unsupportable views, the blithe certitude with which issues of good and evil are addressed, a relationship to God and ourselves that is based on fear and self-loathing, a historical tendency to begin on the wrong side of social justice issues. Admittedly, my first response to Mr. Zirkle—said to myself and friends alone—was a strongly unkind one. I would have rather dismissed him as a misinformed, mentally ill fanatic than to engage his rhetoric. But my own discourteous response to him did not sit well in my own heart as I felt such a response conflicted with my spiritual values and commitments.

At the same time, I sincerely doubt any logical argument or harsh censure will convince him (or any other person who shares in that worldview) to believe otherwise. So then where do we place our energy? How do we keep from beating our own heads against the wall when presented with members of the Church and society at large like Mr. Zirkle? How do we respect our own spiritual commitments when responding to such offensive beliefs without compromising our own? It is easy to diminish or dismiss believers like Mr. Zirkle without examining the root sources for his positions.

I do not know Mr. Zirkle so I will not speculate on how his personal history has shaped his spiritual journey to this point. It does strike me as interesting, however, that he is a fifth generation Seventh-day Adventist who has steeped himself in the authoritative texts of the tradition to shape his arguments. As members in a shared community of faith, it seems unwise to simply dismiss his reading of the Bible and his appropriation of Adventist language and myth without testing how our Church has arrived at its own theological and social positions based on similar methods.

And I can see that Mr. Zirkle, as a lawyer who has apparently witnessed some terrible realities-child pornography, for one-desires to make the world a better place in the way he knows how. But in his desire to fight the good fight, he has misguidedly fallen into the age-old tradition of scapegoating: resolving the question of evil by projecting the undesirable elements of human experience onto another and then working to purge the “sin” from the group as a whole. In this sense, then, he is right in sync with much of American political and religious life these days which is quick to demonize the Other among us. As uninviting a proposition as it may be, when it comes to a discussion of good and evil, President Bush's worldview (good versus evil, us versus them) is about as complex as Tony Zirkle's.

And to make this more personal, the other day I spent about half an hour listening to Rush Limbaugh to practice sending love and light his way. It seemed to work for brief moments of time but later that night I launched into a tirade to my husband about the horribleness of the man and how much I hated him. I know my own spiritual commitments demand that I work towards greater compassion for all. But I also have ugly and unhealed aspects to my soul that have a lot in common with the fear and intolerance Mr. Zirkle unwittingly espouses. And that is what I am hoping to heal and what this conversation has, in part, raised for me.

Heather, you are most articulate in your responses, as always, but I do wonder whether we should feel guilt for our feelings of hatred toward the positions taken by men like Limbaugh or Zirkle? Why should we? Haven't we been raised to evaluate evil propositions that damage the very souls of other individuals? Or do we continue using the old cliche of "hating the sin but loving the sinner"? How can we embrace the showmanship developed by such as Limbaugh that has brought him million of listeners and dollars? Has he not pandered to the worst in people by spewing his brand of vitriol directed at anyone who disagrees? Whether he truly believes it or not is irrelevant. First, and foremost, he commands a huge audience and that is what "sells" and keeps him on the air.

He is only good for raising blood pressure for those who suffer from hypotension.

Give G.W.Bush one credit: he has bought the SDA Great Controversy theme, with a few additions of his own. But so have Hagee, Parsley, and their ilk.

Since some of us do not have unlimited compassion, it seems far more appropriate to save it for the truly needy: the victims in China and Myanmar, for example.

Hi Elaine,

I am not saying that we should refrain from evaluating positions like Zirkle's. When I talk about finding a place for compassion here, I'm not talking about simply being nice and sweet and never taking a stand on anything. You know me well enough to know that I don't live that way. But I am also trying to take seriously my commitment to live more compassionately. And that means that I have to confront those things in myself that make such a commitment difficult to carry out, including my own tendencies towards fear, intolerance, and mean-spiritedness--things that we all struggle with, it seems.

Hope you're well.

All the best,

Heather

Heather, in your position as hospital chaplain, you are constantly called on to exude compassion; something few of us are consistently confronted with. It's the age-old situation of determining what deserves our compassion and what deserves our speaking out so as not to fall with those who consent by silence.

Yes, thanks for asking. I'm doing well as can be seen by my acerbic comments!

Heather & Elaine,

I'll have to read those last five posts again, but upon the first skim, it's not clear to me where you feel I err. Can you identify specifically what you disagree with and can you cite chapter and verse?

I've stated,
1. Porn-prostitution is a growing problem for which the church should not be lukewarm about and ignore; otherwise, we risk tolerating Jezebel and God having a "few things against us." Neither Elijah, Josiah nor any of the other kings who "did what was right in the sight" told God to buzz off from acting socially. Well, they did live before Jefferson wrote "wall of separation between church and state" in that letter to the Baptist church.
2. The excess percentage of Jews in porn space and in media promoting "free love" is an international security risk that could potentially be used to incite Christians and Muslims to unite under an anti-Semitic platform. Al Quada's #2 man, Al-Zawahiri, has preached that the Americans "invade the chastity" of their daughters and unless the Muslims fight us, the Americans will do the same to their daughters. Bin Laden has even cited American porn as a justification to attack us. Even Saddam Hussein got it. He put porn pimps in jail for an automatic 6 months.
3. The court-forced integration of black and white youth has lead to a shocking level of sex addiction and has contributed to the fact that 80% of black babies are born out-of-wedlock in Indiana. When black men have a constant supply of white girls to throw themselves at, they can more readily treat the black mothers of their babies "worse than a dog" as I have been told by one black single mom in my family law practice. One of my male black clients recently told me that he has seen many of the most beautiful white girls hanging out with the nastiest black men who sit on their cell phone all day and who refuse to work because the white girls pay all their bills. The black guys have no intention of marrying them but just use them then throw them away. He also told me that the gov't should stop paying black women to have babies out of wedlock because they just have babies to get a check. This was coming from a black man. Maybe white guilt is clouding perception. There are real and serious problems in both the white and black community. In one of my cases, a black women hauled 8 different guys into court before she got my client who was the biological father. The media has promoted this culture to the black community and that's my target, not black victims of media mis-education.

We talk about the sanctuary much. We discuss the literal worship sanctuary, we talk how the Garden of Eden was a sanctuary planted in the "east" and how Adam and Eve were to "tend and keep" it just as the priests "tend and keep" the sanctuary. We relate it to the agricutural cycle, salvation cycle, historical cycle, etc.

But is the sanctuary literal in the body? Would the candelabra be the eyes? Would the table of showbread be the stomach? Would the ark of the covenant be the mind? If so, what would the Shekinah (feminine in Hebrow) over the mercy seat be? Could it be a woman's womb? If so, what would God think of capitalists who exploit it? Would he not take is with the very utmost level of seriousness? What would God think of us if we sat by and did nothing while the GPD continually assaulted his children's mercy seat in their body temples? Did the Jews sit around and claim separation of church and state when the Greeks erected a pig in the holiest of holies? Doesn't Laodicea mean "judging of the people?" How will we be judged if we remain lukewarm about the GPD's sexual assault on God's sanctuary and do nothing?

Is it even remotely possible that the GPD and his "ilk" is not just some philosophical spiritual adultery debating club like President Bush called the U.N.? Is it possible that the Bible here might mean exactly what it says, that the GPD is a ravenous porn-pimp rapist, who seeks to literally and physically sexually assault God's children's body temples in a Zulu massacreing, slut and bang bussing, porn-mule abusing, brutal dildo desensitizing, std-proliferating, bastardizing exploding, hate speech orgiastic wrathful revengizing manner? If so, the GPD may be far more scarry than the very worst Hollywood horror flic, unless of course, you've been touched by perfect love which casts out all fear.

I'll read those posts later to see if I missed something. I understand racial segrgation, porn and anti-Semitism are extremely sensitive and difficult topics; however, we're supposed to be the Elijah's preparing the way. If SDAs can't address these issues, then who can?

Thank you for allowing me to work out my thoughts on these matters. I've progressed much in the last few day in understanding what my own positions are. There's always a tension between revelation and inspiration. What one believes they have realized through experience is often difficult to translate into words that others can understand. Plato discussed a similar problem in his allegory of the cave where ocassionally someone is released from the darkness of the cave where they only views shadows darkly and where that person is dragged up to see the light. While that person would prefer to live a quiet life and contemplate the true forms, he feels compelled to server his man by going back into the darkness. When he does he has much difficulty adjusting to the darkness in explaining what he saw.

Very truly yours,
Tony Zirkle

Thanks Heather.

It is good for us as believers, as Americans, as church members, as Christ-followers to look deeper than this obvious fear-based racism and narcissism and think about how our hermeneutic of a text or sentence here and there fails to offer stronger tools for healing.

David Koresh, the Lord Our Righteousness New Mexico cult, and Zirkle all combine sex and apocalyptic paranoia. It's not unique to us, but there is a clear pattern, and it gives me pause that Zirkle found succor in a top Adventist scholar and a pastor.

What has the grammatical-historical method wrought?

Alexander,

Let's make sure we're on the same page.

"par·a·noi·a
–noun 1. Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.
2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.
...

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others
...
"mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions," 1891 (earlier paranoea 1811), from Gk. paranoia "mental derangement, madness," from paranoos "mentally ill, insane," from para- "beside, beyond" + noos "mind." Paranoid (adj.) is first attested 1904, from paranoia + Gk. -oeides "like," from eidos "form, shape" (see -oid). The noun meaning "a paranoid person" is attested from 1922."

http://www.dictionary.com

I was just wondering...

...as I read this thread through - read it through twice...

...I was just wondering...

... are there some texts missing from the Bible of some of you who have posted here...

...I was just wondering...

... Is John 8:7 missing...
... Is Matt. 5:43, 44 missing...
... Is Matt. 7:1 missing,,,
,,, Is Matt. 7:12 missing..

...I was just wondering...

...Do any of you owe Tony an apology...

...I was just wondering...

...Do any of you owe Rush an apology...

...I was just wondering...

...Do I owe someone an apology...

... I was just wondering...

Matthew 5:22 "and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

cf

"Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire." R.V. In the Old Testament the word "fool" is used to designate an apostate, or one who has abandoned himself to wickedness. Jesus says that whoever shall condemn his brother as an apostate or a despiser of God shows that he himself is worthy of the same condemnation. {MB 57.2}
"Christ Himself, when contending with Satan about the body of Moses, "durst not bring against him a railing accusation." Jude 9. Had He done this, He would have placed Himself on Satan's ground, for accusation is the weapon of the evil one. He is called in Scripture, "the accuser of our brethren." Revelation 12:10. Jesus would employ none of Satan's weapons. He met him with the words, "The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 9. {MB 57.3}
"His example is for us. When we are brought in conflict with the enemies of Christ, we should say nothing in a spirit of retaliation or that would bear even the appearance of a railing accusation. He who 58 stands as a mouthpiece for God should not utter words which even the Majesty of heaven would not use when contending with Satan. We are to leave with God the work of judging and condemning. {MB 57.4} "Be reconciled to thy brother."
Matthew 5:24.

Here's what I was looking for:

"but whosoever shall say, Thou FOOL, shall be in danger of hell fire." God has a controversy with that man. He thinks he has occasion for feeling angry, for calling his brother raca, "vain fellow;" but these passionate words are a savor of death unto death. He who utters them is not co-operating with God, but with Satan. In heaven his wicked railing is placed in the same list as swearing." {RH, April 1, 1902 par. 11}

Commenting on Mt. 5:22, EGW goes further,

"There is an anger that is not of this criminal nature. A certain kind of indignation is justifiable, under some circumstances, even in the followers of Christ. When they see God dishonored, his name reviled, and the precious cause of truth brought into disrepute by those who profess to revere it, when they see the innocent oppressed and persecuted, a righteous indignation stirs their soul; such anger, born of sensitive morals, is not a sin." {4Red 72}

I thought I also read that "fool" also means empty headed in the SDA Bible Commentary or essentially crazy but I'll have to look that up again when I get a chance.

It is a very common debate tactic to call your opponent "crazy" when you can't persuade him. One of my former prosecutor bosses had a "disgruntled" employee to was going after him in the press. My boss then told me, "Don't think I didn't learn something from Giuliani when I was in New York. You paint your enemies like they're nuts" so that no one will believe them as you discredit them.

Calling someone "crazy" is like calling someone a "racist." It's a charge that automatically sticks and for which there is no ready defense. If you try to prove you are not crazy then the shrinks will just say you're temporarily in remission. If you try to prove you're not a racists, people can say you're just masking it.

Look at the recent political democrat campaign. John McCain's 95 year old mom has been called "bat-s*** loony" by wonkette.com and who would have ever thought that Bill Clinton, the first "black" president, would be called a "racist." You can probably throw in anti-Semite into the category of indefensible charges. Look at Jimmy Carter.

I think the idea here is that if we level personal attacks in debates, we distract ourselves from mutually finding solutions to real problems. The focus of the debate then gets shifted to the individuals involved and away from the issues. Where would the world be if every time Abraham Lindoln or Winston Churchill, both bipolar manic-depressives, spoke, their political opponents leveled the
charge of crazy? Would we still be a slave-owning, Nazi dominated world? Crazy people can make a difference and contribute, at least before the Jewish shrink Freud's science falsely called sophistry took hold of the world and put the vast majority of bipolar geniuses out of commission with pharmakai drugs (Rev. 9:15).

There's a clear difference between delusion and illusion. An illusion may be wrong but you can't prove it. A delusion is an idea clung to even after it is proven wrong. No one has yet proved to me that literal porn-prostitution was not predicted by Scripture. Calling it textual-literalis does not turn an illusion into a delusion. It's a manner of semantics. You can not win a debate by re-defining the issues so that you can win your own argument, and you can not win a debate by just calling someone crazy.

This sort of reminds me of Ervin Baxter, the radio promoter of "Politics and Religion" when I tried to re-direct him to the 1260 years being from Justinian and Napoleon. He then responded by calling that "preterism." I was so stunned by his re-defining the term to win his point, that I didin't think fast enough to respond by telling him that it was actually historicism.

BTW, they often say that when you point the finger at someone else in psychiatry, that you often point 3 back at yourself. Are you comparing me to David Koresh? Is this an unjustified "fear?" Paranoia is an unjustified fear. Protesting porn, Jews in porn space, and the social costs of a blacksonblonds rampant adultery culture in the midst of an undisciplined democracy is justified; therefore, it is not paranoia - at least according to dictionary.com's definition and the principles of scripture.

Chuck,

It looks like they're all present and accounted for in on my copy of the 2007 Version of the EGW Complete Writings and KJV that came with it. Thanks for asking.

Matt 5:43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Matt 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Matt 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

"As iron sharpens iron..."

Peace,
Tony

Mr. Zirkle,

I think your goodwill, frankness and moral courage are manifest and commendable. You demand an evidentiary rebuttal of your arguments rather than a dogmatic one (i.e. one presumed to be self-evident or of a priori validity, and thus not requiring further defense), and I think you are fairly entitled to one, although I perceive that people are tiring of banging their heads against the wall you have raised to the world:

(1) While we must all accept the word of God as evidence, the assertion that the teachings of Jesus (actual or represented) or any man constitute this word is not supported by any evidence of this world other than hearsay. Nor is it supportable, because you could not be certain of your ability to recognize it as such. You have no knowledge of God with which you could compare your empirical observation. If, despite all you have learned from Plato, you persist in claiming this arrogant ‘knowledge’ of God by referring it to some inward source (e.g. you ‘feel’ the truth ‘in your heart’, or you ‘just know’), please exercise your demonstrated integrity and fearless acceptance of hard truths by allowing that this internal belief does not constitute evidentiary knowledge of some reality external to yourself, and shared by all other beings in the universe. It may be something else, and perhaps something good, but it is not evidence, and evidence is what you have demanded, and I think justly so.

(2) No evidence of a Great Porn Dragon exists. Certainly you don’t mean a real dragon, but some sort of evil spirit—perhaps Satan (evidence?)—animating the porn industry. But how? Oh right—the Jews.

(3) No evidence of Jewish conspiracy exists. I am half-Jewish by blood and grew up in a half-Jewish town (Ann Coulter’s hometown of New Canaan was almost nextdoor, and they didn’t like Jews there, so they were over-represented in our town.) and I can assure you that there is no secret handshake or anything, and if we are in league with Satan we are completely unaware of it, and thus do not qualify as a conspiracy. To indulge in the same kind of sweeping generalizations that get you into trouble, Jews tend to be good students and go to good colleges and universities, and like all other well educated people, tend to go where the money is: business, law, medicine. In NYC, business means investment banking, and there’s a lot of Jews in NYC. It doesn’t follow that Jews, as a consciously unified entity, mean to control the world economy, as I have heard asserted repeatedly in your neck of the woods (including by a Lutheran pastor in Michigan). Back where you live, there’s like ten Jews in a whole county, so of course it seems unbalanced when every other investment banker in the investment banking capital of the world is Jewish. I might as well assert, from the over-representation of Scandinavians in the Midwest that Aryans are conspiring to control the world’s food supply. Assuming, for the sake of argument, an over-representation of Jews in the entertainment industry, which I doubt statistically exists (I think your attention is just gravitating towards what its looking for, and a minimal representation seems normal to you, given your background.), the same explanation would suffice—in LA, if not in the US as a whole, entertainment is where the money is, and producing movies is, after all, not far removed from investment banking.

Be sensible, man. Separate what is reasonable in your argument from what is silly. You may sensibly argue that pornography has various negative aspects, and point out very many other valid problems faced by us in our families, our communities, our country and the world; but do not needlessly do harm to yourself, and possibly to others, by leaping to very convoluted and unlikely explanations, which conveniently glorify yourself and alienate those whom you perceive as your adversaries, when much simpler and more likely explanations are readily available for the same phenomena.

You seem a very tortured person, and from your expressed views you must be finding yourself an increasingly isolated one as well. I’ll bet you have led a complicated life, and your experiences have led you to make the choices you have. I think you would find life a better thing if you could accept this complexity in your own life, in the lives of others (e.g. gays, blacks, non-Christians), and in God’s world in general, and not subject all three to the Procrustean bed of your inappropriately rigid understanding. It is with sadness that I seem to observe you breaking yourself on it right now.

Heather,

Thanks for the reality check, not only on the personal, but on the corporate level as well. To see Adventist apocalyptic permeate this issue certainly gives one pause. To here that active pastors/teachers are in agreement with some of what Tony is espousing gives cause for even greater concern. To look at myself and ourselves in light of all this, can only be healthy.

Tony,

I cannot for one second agree with the basis of your world-view as you connect this real, societal problem to sweeping, fabricated, racist stereotypes. At least that is how I percieve what you are saying.

With that said, I am sorry if you have felt me personally disrespecting you in any way. Please accept my apologies.

Thanks...

Frank

Tony, it seems that some of your witnesses (if not most), as in "One of my male black clients...", are chosen because they affirm your view point, not because they have been proven to be reliably accurate. This may be a strategy used before a jury, I am not sure it works in the realms of social science.

While it's promoting awareness of both pros and cons in the religious world, particularly Adventistism, perhaps we have aided and abetted the Koresh and other outspoken protesters far beyond their own ability to actively promote themselves by giving them so much blog space.

There have been, and always will be, the apocalyptic seers who see a devil behind each world event but it only furnishes such individuals a bully platform they would not have had. And for what purpose?

Here's an excerpt from our own Desmond Ford's son, Luke Ford, the most famous Jews in porn space chronicler:

"Jews in Porn
An early version of an article at www.lukeford.com

"Jews dominate the production and distribution of porn. Leading pornographers with Jewish names include Wesley Emerson, Paul Fishbein, Herbert Feinberg a.k.a. Mickey Fine, Lenny Friedlander, Bobby Hollander, Rubin Gottesman, Fred Hirsch and his children Steve and Marjorie, Paul "Norman" Apstein, Steve Orenstein, Theodore Rothstein, Reuben and David Sturman, Ron Sullivan, Sam and Mitch Weston (Spinelli).

"Jews accounted for most of the leading male performers of the 1970's and '80's. Hebrew studs include Buck Adams, Bobby Astyr, R. Bolla (Richard Parnes), Jerry Butler (Paul Siderman), Seymour Butts (Adam Glaser), David Christopher (Bernie Cohen), Steve Drake, Jesse Eastern, Jamie Gillis, Ron Jeremy (Hyatt), Michael Knight, Ashley Moore, David Morris, George Payne, Ed Powers (Mark Arnold), Harry Reems (Herbert Streicher), Dave Ruby, Herschel Savage, Carter Stevens (Mal Whorb), Marc Stevens, Paul Thomas (Phil Tobias), Marc Wallice, Randy West and Jack Wrangler.

"Jewish female performers include Avalon, Jenny Baxter (Jenny Wexler), Busty Belle (Tracy Praeger), Chelsea Blake, Tiffany Blake, Bunny Bleu, Lee Carroll (Leslie Barns), Blair Castle/Brooke Fields (Allison Shandibal), Courtney/Natasha/Eden (Natasha Zimmerman), Daphne (Daphne Franks), Barbara Dare (Stacy Mitnick), April Diamond, Jeanna Fine, Alexis Gold, Tern Hall, Heather Hart, Nina Hartley, C. J. Laing (Wendy Miller), Frankie Leigh (Cynthia Hope Geller), Gloria Leonard, Traci Lords (Nora Louise Kuzman), Amber Lynn, Tonisha Mills, Melissa Monet, Susan Nero, Scarlett 0. (Catherine Goldberg), Tawny Pearl (Susan Pearlman), Nina Preta, Tracey Prince, Janey Robbins (Robin Lieberman), Alexandra Silk, Susan Sloan, Annie Sprinkle (Ellen Steinberg), Karen Summer (Dana Alper), Zara Whites and Ona Zee (Ona Simms).

...
"Pornographer Seymour Butts [Adam Glasser] attributes the large number of Jews in porn to the desire for profits. 'Jews gravitate toward money. We're smart people who've been persecuted through time. The weak of our people were weeded out. The strong-willed Jews survived... from Egypt to Germany.

"Blacks, for instance, are athletically superior (more muscle per fibre per square inch of flesh) because they were bred that way. We killed the weak ones off. The ones that survived were the big ones, the fast ones, the strongest ones, the fighters, the ones that could work the most, with the biggest *****... Jews same thing. We NETWORK, the thing that Blacks won't do. They're still killing each other. We support each other. The worst that we will do is sue each other.

"If four people compete for a job, and three of them are goyim [non-Jews], the Jew, all things being equal, will get the job. That's the way I work. If I've got three actors going for a part, and one of them is Jewish, and they're all in the same ballpark... Sue me."

http://www.vnnforum.com/archive/index.php/t-35273.html

I recall an econometric study at Georgetown that dealt with I.Q. levels among the races, and the I.Q.s for Jews was statistically significantly higher than others. If you buy into Emmanual Kant's theory that nothing is good in and of itself except a good will, then intelligence can be used for good or evil.

In the case of porn-prostitution, Jewish I.Q.s and being combined with their "networking" tendencies in order to cause far more harm to society per capita. Take the money out of porn, my goal, and talented Jews will gravitate to science, medicine and other fields that will be a blessing to the world and not a cursing scourge to society. Mine is a pro-Jewish position!!! Why can I not explain myself???

Frank,

I ignore what people call me and personal attacks because I actually believed my mom that "sticks and stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me." The relevant issue is the societal social costs of sin and how we can reduce sin and save those social costs that are taxing us to death. ie We have more than tripled our prison population since 1975. Jesus came to set the captives free, and we should work to do the same.

Mr. Larsen,

There's much more evidence that what I've cited here. I've had black male/white female divorce clients who when they get in an argument, they get really viscious. "Your just white trash." "You're just another xxxxx from Gary." Another black lady came into my office and had a piece of a white woman's hair she found when she realized her husband was inter-racially committing adultery against her. She told me, "I need to divorce him before I kill him."

Adultery incites murder. I'll say it again. Maybe we should remember the Jesus principle that those who do evil will receive stripes but those who TEACH others to do evil will receive many stripes.

Why do we do nothing to those who TEACH others to do the evil of porn??? We do the opposite. We enshrine neo-Baal porn worship in the very heart of the 1st Amendment and honor them as Free Speech Coalition human rights defenders of liberty. Absurd!

Matt. 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Is Jesus saying here that lynching in the sea is more of a blessing for a porn capitalist/mule who will offend little ones than allowing the to teach more evil and abuse more youth? BTW, lynching is not a punishment limited to black people. Many more whites have been lynched throughout history than blacks.

Zachary,

Procrustean defined:

"1. pertaining to or suggestive of Procrustes.
2. (often lowercase) tending to produce conformity by violent or arbitrary means. ...
"adj. Producing or designed to produce strict conformity by ruthless or arbitrary means. [After Procrustes, a mythical Greek giant who stretched or shortened captives to make them fit his beds, from Latin Procrustēs, from Greek Prokroustēs, from prokrouein, hammer out, to stretch out : pro-, forth; see pro-2 + krouein, to beat.] ...
"1846 in figurative sense of "aiming to produce conformity by arbitrary means," from Procrustes (1583), mythical robber of Attica who seized travelers, tied them to his bed, and either stretched their limbs or lopped of their legs to make them fit it. The name is Gk. Prokroustes "one who stretches," from prokrouein "to beat out, stretch out," from pro- "before" + krouein "to strike." ...
"of or relating to the mythical giant Procrustes or the mode of torture practiced by him ...
"Pro*crus"te*an\, a. Of or pertaining to Procrustes, or the mode of torture practiced by him; producing conformity by violent means; as, the Procrustean treatment; a Procrustean limit."
Dictionary.com

Do you believe that Jesus used "VIOLENT and ARBITRARY" means to "FORCE CONFORMITY" when divinity flashed through humanity while he, at both the beginning and ending of his 3 1/2 year ministry, took out a whip and overturned the money changers' tables in the temple?

Jesus could be charged with both the misdemeanors criminal mischief and disorderly conduct if he did that in Indiana today, and if you very liberally read these new terrorism laws, one might argue for a Class A felony, 20-50 years in prison, for using political protests in a way that cause people to evacuate a building - one of the definitions of terrorism. Was Jesus a terrorist? The GPD is really working overtime to actively defend his porn serial woman-womb slaughtering most effective WMD lair here. Incite muslims to murder. Incite Christians to commit adultery. Keep the cycle going. I don't understand how others can't see how obvious this social and historical trend is.

What is the temple now? Our bodies. Who is making our youth's bodies a den of thieves? The porn capitalists and porn mules. Are we going to do what Jesus did and upset the temple thieve's apple cart through non-criminal activism? Will we cower behind the "separation of church and state" mantra?

I'm trying to respond to as much as I can here, but the GPD has me making bricks without straw and I'm a tad busy.

Zachary,

In point 1 above, you write, "the assertion that the teachings of Jesus (actual or represented) or any man constitute this word is not supported by any evidence of this world other than hearsay."

Say what?

Hearsay is legally defined as "an out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted." Specifically exempted from the definition of hearsay is any statement made by a party opponent and offered against him.

Direct evidence obtained through personal observation that is non-testimonial is not hearsay. Statistical facts obtained through valid scientific methods are also admissible in court. Experts witnesses who testify concerning industry acceptable methods are allowed to use hearsay to draw their expert conclusions.

We need to be talking the same language with the terminological definitions if we desire to have any possibility of understanding each other; otherwise, if we use different definitions, we might argue from here to eternity and never realize we substantially agreed.

My position is that scriptural truth is a scientific mathematical fact. I'll refer you to Grant Jeffrey's book, "Armageddon: Appointment with Destiny" where he estimates the statistical probability that Jesus could have fulfilled just 8 of the hundreds and hundres of propheciesa predicting him and calculates it to be something like 1 chance in 10 to the 23rd power. When I read that on a nuclear powered submarine in the Atlantic, I threw the book down and asked to finally get baptized. (I'm not vouching for Mr. Jeffrey's dispensationalism though but Satan would love to have Armageddon be a literal war and not a repeat of the spiritual anti-porn pimp Baal sex cult war that Elijah carried out).

There's plenty of evidence to support scripture as truth. It's not hearsay. Isaiah predicted the exact name Cyrus about 150 years before. Daniel predicted much. Incidentally, there is evidence of entire "families" of scribal distinctions in the 135 B.C. Daniel Dead Sea Scrolls documents. That would not happen if Daniel were written only 30 or so years earlier because the original would be present. Therefore, the true preterists who call Daniel a forging lie are mistaken.

In point 2 above you state, "No evidence of a Great Porn Dragon exists. Certainly you don’t mean a real dragon, but some sort of evil spirit—perhaps Satan (evidence?)—animating the porn industry. But how? Oh right—the Jews."

Yes. Exactly. I mean a real evil spirit satanic dragon.

a. Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a GREAT red DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
b. Rev. 12:9 And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
c. Rev. 12:17 And the DRAGON was WROTH [ORGY] with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
d. Isa. 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. [Art] thou not it that hath cut Rahab, [and] wounded the DRAGON?
e. Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the DRAGON, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
f. Jer. 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for DRAGONS, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.
g. Deut. 32:33 Their WINE [is] the poison of DRAGONS, and the cruel venom of asps.
h. Eze. 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the GREAT DRAGON that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
i. Isa. 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the DRAGON that [is] in the sea.
j. Jer. 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, [and] a DEN of DRAGONS; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. [Jesus used DEN of THIEVES - Hmm. This is getting interesting. There's more evidence than I thought. I'm learning here.]
k. Jer. 14:6 And the WILD ASSES did stand in the HIGH PLACES, they SNUFFED up the wind like DRAGONS; their eyes did fail, because [there was] no grass.
l. Mic. 1:8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a WAILING like the DRAGONS, and mourning as the owls. [A dragon is a symbol of sex. The owl, a companion of Athena is a symbol of literal virginhood. Dr. Regazzi, parthenos as in "Athena Parthenos" means literal virgin, not just a young woman of marriageable age, all of whom should be virgins unless they're harlots or were defiled anyway.]
m. Rev. 14:8 "And there followed another angel, saying, BABYLON is fallen, is fallen, that GREAT city, because she made all nations drink of the WINE of the WRATH [ORGY] of her FORNICATION [PORN].
n. Neh. 2:13 And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the DRAGON well, and to the DUNG port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire. [That's in interesting connection of dragon and dung. My thoughts exactly. BTW, who was the 2nd shortest man in scripture? Knee high miah. Who was the shortest? Bildad the shoe hite. Memorize your Bible and the syllabus and you might pass the final which is called the firey furnace as Dr. Waterhous might jest.]
Jer. 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the KING of BABYLON Hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a DRAGON, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.
Psa. 95:3 For the LORD [is] a GREAT GOD, and a GREAT KING above all gods.
Gen. 3:1 Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
Gen. 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the SERPENT, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy BELLY shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

If the serpent's curse was to go on it's belly, did it originally have wings? What is a winged serpent? A Dragon. I hesitate to use this phrase since my mental health is apparently in issue here, but I can't resist. Connect the dots between the following:

i. great dragon
ii. orgy (wrath)
iii. wine
iv. den of dragons, den of thieves
v. snuffed (not sure about that but it's a porn term for murderous porn)
vi. wild asses in high places (high places, sacred poles and groves are all porn-pimp Baal cult sex terms in the OT cf. flesh of asses in Ezekiel)
vii. wailing like dragons, sounds like a porn video harpie
viii. Babylon - Great city, "wine of the wrath/orgy of her porn"
etc., etc.

Hence, the Great Porn Dragon. I rest my case - for now because I'm hungry for lunch. Any more questions?

Tony, again you are using statements by enraged clients to prove sweeping generalizations as societal truths.

Statements like, "Your just white trash." "You're just another xxxx from Gary." Another black lady came into my office and had a piece of a white woman's hair she found when she realized her husband was inter-racially committing adultery against her. She told me, "I need to divorce him before I kill him.", and "One of my male black clients recently told me that he has seen many of the most beautiful white girls hanging out with the nastiest black men who sit on their cell phone all day and who refuse to work because the white girls pay all their bills." are used as supposed proof for the stated "fact" that "The court-forced integration of black and white youth has lead to a shocking level of sex addiction". Such "proofs" do not necessarily conclude the assumption unless you are already convinced and have no desire to examine the conclusion.

I am having some trouble following this discussion but this is what I think I see

There are 4 threads on this list
1) Whether TZ should be thrown out of the Adventist church (abbreviation for sake of brevity)
2) Whether TZ's church should discipline him
3) Whether TZ or anybody should ever be disciplined for any kind of political view
4) Whether TZ's specific views are in fact incorrect and/or not in line with Adventist teaching
It seems that 1 and 2 are none of our business because the local church has jurisdiction. In regard to 3, there seem to be a number who hold that political views have nothing to do with church and we should be able to have whatever political views we like. (Presumably all political views are equally none of our business: racial segregation, gay marriage, anti-abortion, temperance, Sunday laws, etc.) It seems reasonable to discuss the relation of politics to church. #4 seems to be fair game for discussion.

In regard to #4, I think this is what TZ is saying. I'm focusing on the race part because I'm still not sure where the Jews fit in except that they are supposed to be implementing it. I realize I am not getting all the pieces but this is my attempt to make sense of what I read

a. Pornography, which is adultery, is the single most important element incurring God's wrath on our country. Or maybe it's the single most important factor causing societal disintegration.
b. Pornography is caused by integration, which makes everyone become hypersexualized. (Quote somewhere in the threads) A corollary is that with segregation we can eliminate pornography.
c. Pornography victimizes and targets white women in particular, who are lead astray by black-featured porn, resulting in divorce.
d. The National Socialists and KKK are valuable warriors in the fight against pornography
Some responses to b.
Pornography could be broken into several categories:
i. media depictions
ii. physical props ("divorce aids")
iii. actual people (stage shows, exotic dancers, massage).
I don't see how segregation would remove i and ii since Internet porn is so rampant. Even if one were to eliminate all black men from society, digital imaging could still generate whatever is most profitable.
On the other end of the country, white movie stars seem to switch partners fairly frequently so I am not sure that segregation would cure their problems. Not acting in R movies with attractive also-white costars whom they ultimately marry seems as important as avoiding porn, if you ask me. Of course TZ would point out that the film industry is controlled by Jews. I think in any case it would not be hard to find all-white adultery.

The forbidden and exotic are always more interesting and perhaps segregation would make the problem worse. Loma Linda appears to be a mix of races who are used to each other—someone from Loma Linda might comment as to whether the town is a hotbed of cross-race pornography.

Some responses to c.
If race-crossing is so unbearably sexual and white women are the targets, one would expect to see most porn to be cross-race and focused on women. Now, I'm not an expert on porn but the spam on the family computer for all email accounts is addressed to males and is race-neutral. Someone who shops more might tell us if soft-porn romance novels marketed to women feature cross-race relations.

One would also assume that if this attraction is so strong, there would be more cross-race marriages. In fact, though interracial marriages have increased, only 24.7% are black/white and 93% of blacks and whites marry within race (less likely to marry out than other groups). http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm

In regard to d, there must be other groups against porn; conservative Muslims, some feminists, the FLDS. There must be something else that makes TZ like the National Socialists in particular. (Actually, if we are going for segregation, the Muslims have a better idea- remove all opportunity of mixing and there is much less chance of adultery. Or perhaps we should take the FLDS approach that plural marriage decreases the temptation to adultery which would totally confuse those who think we are Mormon).

Tony,

While you're welcome to converse, I've become particularly disappointed with your reasoning of late. Your syntax is packed with terms that only make sense to you.

"The GPD is really working overtime to actively defend his porn serial woman-womb slaughtering most effective WMD lair here."

Furthermore, Luke Ford has his own reactionary struggles and he is hardly a reliable source, given his penchant for the far right-wing.

Furthermore, linking to an overt white supremacist site, which actually rejoices in the tragedy of poor African-Americans suffering in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina reveals a false Christian care, one not so much concerned about others, as afraid of them. When the facts so clearly contradict the reasons for their racist glee, it's clear that the evidence that fuels your porn monomania is rooted in a similar bundle of human fears, all wrapped in a proof text, tied with a link.

If the discussion continues to consist of the same, particularly linking to absurdly anecdotal white supremacist sites, we'll just have to move on and wait for a research paper or proof rooted outside of Nazi-sympathies.

Linking to white supremicist sites in like someone linking to the (fake) Jewish Pornographers Association in refutation. The discussion just isn't producing interesting semi-objective evidence.

We're all sinners and we all want the world to be a better place. Since few Adventists get to confront this mix of the Bible, Ellen White and the raw rhetoric of sex and Others, this has raised some good epistemological questions. How do we use the our sources to find Truth? How do we guide our assumptions about reality if our experiences of reality influence our core assumptions?

We're all busy, but it might be productive to go deeper beyond links and texts and discuss how we humans create meaning?

For some breezy holiday reading, perhaps the wikipedia article on hermeneutics is in order.

Or the Stanford article.

All,
Dick and Tony both posted, quoting others, derogatory language. I know this thread contains a lot of revolting information but there is no excuse for that sort of thing.

If this sort of thing continues we'll remove it and will, if a pattern emerges of improper comments, ban you.

Our guidelines are visible above the comment area. If you have questions about what is or isn't acceptable you can email us using the contact form linked to in the footer.

Thank you,
Johnny

As a Christian I am greatly disappointed with the comments of this Blog, "Judge Not..." I went to the Video of mr. Zirkle's speech, he said nothing inappropriate. Not to very long ago, one of the owners of one of the major Resorts on the Las Vegas held a Birthday Party for Hitler as well. You would be surprised who attended. You chalk it up, to each his own, this is America.

I must also add, that there is MAJOR differences, and those who are prone to sweeping statements, should educate themselves, between National Socialists and the Nazi Groups who are really White Sepratists. In the end, Mr. Zirkle is free to think as he wishes, those of you who are seeking to throw him from his Church and other so called "disciplinary actions" are engaging in the type of "Nazi" conduct you profess to hate, seems a bit hypocritcal.

What is wrong with Mr. Zirkle's strong convections against pornography and prostitution? some here have mocked this, it does indeed destroy families and young women and preys on the poor and uneducated who are usually in crisis. many who mock Mr. Zirkle's crusade, perhaps haave used these services or have never seen the after effects, young women with AIDs or the broken familys.
I think its time to stop the dog pile on Mr. Zirkle, and all of us have some selg reflection. yes he talked to some Neo Nazis, Jesus would have talked to them too, and if one of them came to Christ, it was worth it.

I apologize for the typos in my post, I am disables and my typing is not what it should be. My daughter usually types for me. I trust they are not so bad that my message is unreadable.

Well said Alex

Chuck

Let's be clear here. Anyone carefully reading the comments above will see a serious engagement with Mr. Zirkle, and almost no attempt to railroad. And furthermore there's an almost total lack of the sort of metaphysical judging (heaven/hell) that you imply. Read Heather's thoughtful response.

There is a tendency common these days of ignoring facts to commiserate with the socially disenfranchised. The case here is that some folks on the Right want to be oh-so-inclusive that they fail to erect standards of right and wrong. Alex, Poole, what's wrong with racism? Are you members of the Adventist Church?

It takes about two minutes of reading indistinguishable rhetoric of groups who employ one name or the other to see that while different people use different names, National Socialists and Neo-nazis both hate Jews and blacks. That Zirkle feigns ignorance of this, while quoting them reveals a troubling amount of intellectual dishonesty. Just because lots of people misunderstand you or them, doesn't make you right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#The_Americas

It should not be lost on historians that Jerry Falwell, who made his name railing against porn, started out railing against white/black mixing. As the great Edmund Burke said: "The concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear."

If nothing else, Adventists should be be alert to how many Christian sympathizers have appeared here attempting to excuse Zirkle's racist sexual phobia. After all this sex/race rhetoric was around in Germany pre-1933.

For most Adventists visiting this site, it is disturbing to see the hate (and weirdness above) but it's key to see how intolerance and poor, fear-based thinking is connected

Pastor Martin Martin Niemöller wrote about the silence of the times:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Johnny, take it off if you will. I was using Tony's qoutes to question his line of logic. But really, in doing this you are threatening to ban me? I do take offense at that.

I am very happy that the gentleman quoted pator Neimoller, he had it right. However following the discorse on this Blog, one could easily chane that saying and apply it today to read, "first they came for Mr. Zirkle because they thought he was a Neo-nazi and I agreed, then they came for...."

By the way, you are quite incorrect, Only the White Sepratists and White Supremeists hate all Jews as a race and African Americans as a rac. There are American National Socialists, who beleive in National Socialism as a political economic philiosphy for all. As i said in my prior message, people need a little self reflection instead of engaging in emotionally charged over simplfifications.

If one looks at all the so called National Socalist Entities it is quite easy to identify the uneducated hate groups that use swasitikas and the name National Socialism but have no concept of it's political ideals, only to use it for their moronic white power silliness.

I wponder just how much blow back Mr. Zirkle would be receiving had he spoken to the American Communist party with a picture of Stalin behind him, who by the way killed far more people in his gulags over his 20 year dictatorship than Hitler?? This bares some thinking and prayer on those who are outraged at Mr. Zirkle.

The Skeptics' Movement in my home country used to print T-shirts that said: "There is a difference between an open mind and a whole in your head."

I can see that Spectrum's commitment to open debate would make you reluctant to to banish a debate from your website but I would argue that enough is enough. Racists and nazi sympathizers have the freedom to propagate their ideas, courtesy of the First Amendment, but that doesn't mean that they need to do it here.

Once you have established that somebody--in his own words-- subscribes to the values of the Abyss, there is nothing more to be said.

I think Cliff Goldstein some time back, in a moment of supreme creationist frustration, challenged "liberals" to state if anything was sacred anymore. Well, this is one of those things. Racism combined with nazism is pure evil.

You don't debate evil, you try to crush it, and if you can't do that, you do your best to drive it back into its subterranean abodes. This is a beast that needs attention to thrive.

"Let's be clear here. Anyone carefully reading the comments above will see a serious engagement with Mr. Zirkle, and almost no attempt to railroad."

Well Alexander, I guess its OK then since there were ALMOST no attempts.....

"The case here is that some folks on the Right want to be oh-so-inclusive that they fail to erect standards of right and wrong."

I guess some might say the same for you advocating for the homosexual adjenda. After all, Tony's biblical interpitations are no further afield than are Raymond Thompsons et al.

The Great Edmund Burke also said,
It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for its welfare.

I dont say this is the case here. I show it to demonstrate how easy it is to come up with a quote to enforce whatever one wants, and still be practically worthless.

Alex's post demonstrates Good Faith:

No intention of malice.
People trying their best to do their best.
People trying their best to do their best for the greater good of the community.
Friendliness, honesty, caring.

None of us know Tony well enough to not offer advice in Good Faith.

FYI,

I want to suggest that it is biblical "to judge."

What does 1 Cor. 5:12 mean?

Now one should take care the admonition that they will be judged in the same manner they judge.

The same word in Greek is used for Judge and condemn. The context would give us better application.

To spiritually eternally condemn is left to God's judgment. To discern/judge behavior and possible discipline is allowed of the church.

I believe Tony used poor judgment in appearing before neo-Nazis and Hitler's statue. I also believe Communism and Nazism is evil.

That's my unaplogetic judgment that has nothing to do with the fact that we are all sinners. Let sin be called by it's correct name and "let God be true and me a liar" if I try to defend/justify myself in my sin.

pat

Considering the level of awareness regularly displayed on this site by those who weigh in on the issues, I would say it would be a safe bet that there would be similar blow-back if Mr. Zirkle had spoken at a Communist birthday commemeration of Stalin. The evil Stalin perpetrated is not some unknown historical footnote and is no more acceptable than Nazism. Neither is the confused sexual/racist rhetoric of the 1930's Nazi party an unknown footnote...a rhetoric that has seemed to find its way into Mr. Zirkle's.

No one here objects to standing against pornography and its dehumanizing and destructive effect on our culture. What is being objected to is its link with racial and ethnic stereotyping, and with the public validating of a political party who finds its roots in similar rhetoric and propoganda. A propoganda that helped fuel GENOCIDE!!!

As Christians, how can we not stand against such?

Thanks...

Frank

Zachary,

You wrote in point 3 above, "(3) No evidence of Jewish conspiracy exists."

A "conspiracy" is defined as two or more individuals in agreement to commit a crime after one person engages in an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

I don't think I had previously used the word conspiracy. It is another debate tactic to claim your opponent has a conspiracy because having a "conspiracy thus" sounds crazy.

But now that I think about it, Seymour Butts did admit to preferential Jewish hiring in porn which is obscenity and a crime and when you display, offer to display and distribute it, it become racketeering.

"In the year 1844, on the eve of the Jewish Revolution of 1848, Benjamin Disraeli, whose real name was Israel, and who was a "damped", or baptized Jew, published his novel, Conningsby, in which occurs this ominous passage:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."

And he went on to show that these personages were all Jews.
...
FUNERAL ORATION

THE FATAL DISCOURSE OF RABBI REICHHORN
...
"17. Let us take care not to hinder the MARRIAGE OF OUR MEN WITH CHRISTIAN GIRLS, FOR THROUGH THEM WE SHALL GET OUT FOOT INTO THE MOST CLOSELY LOCKED CIRCLES. If our daughter marry Goyim they will be no less useful, for the children of a JEWISH mother are ours. LET US FOSTER THE IDEA OF FREE LOVE, THAT WE MAY DESTROY AMONG CHRISTIAN WOMEN ATTACHMENT TO THE PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES OF THEIR RELIGION."

This slander comes from the appendix to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. When asked if he believed they were a forgery, Czar Nicholas II of Russia said that he did not know but that what he saw in the Jewish community at the time was consistent with the Protocols.

Let us not forget that Henry Ford expended a significant portion of his automobile making money distribuing tracts called, "The International Jew, The World's Foremost Problem."

Didn't Hamas put in their constitution when they took over Gaza that the Jews were responsible for WWI and WWII and the Revolutions in Russia and France?

Edmond Burke wrote against the excesses of the French Revolution, part of which was no fault divorce as a mere civil contract that even EGW cites a quote calling the Republican marriage the "sacrament of adultery" in the "Great Controversy."

Maybe we should have an anti-Semitism studies professorship at Andrews seminary so that we can study what has happened to the Jews as the GPD perfects his persecution techniques so that SDAs will be better prepared when the GPD directs his snuffing wind at us.

I still am not explaining myself. The criminal Jews (small minority of them) are not the direct problem. They are pawns used by the GPD to incite hate against the true Sabbath. Remember that modern anti-Semitism arose after Jews killed about a million Roman soldiers in the 67-73 wars and the Bar Kochba revolt in 132-135 A.D.? However, when Jews, with their high intelligence, greater wealth per capita, and networking skills, unite they can sometimes make it to the other side of the chess board and transform into a Queen, bishops, knights or rooks and wreak havic on society.

Dr. Daamsteegt would say the the "real enemy" is the "man of sin" little horn noted in the preface to the KJV. If pagan doctrines, a false sabbath, and unkosher eating habits were not infecting Christianty, Jews would find us more tolerable and appealing.

The real enemy that the GPD is principly using is plane of shinar harlot queen operating that palendrome GGMGG minus a letter in Hb. (God save the queen!) whose image was 6 cubits by 6 cubits by 60 cubits, not directly what Luther called the antichrist of the flesh, militant Islam, who might be the war horse knights. Protestants might be the bishops who assist the GPD with the dispensationalist error and who erect an image to the sea beast via a spurious Sabbath. Secularists might be the castle rooks who fund the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about in his final address. Combine the whole group and you get the three part city of Catholic-Protestant, Islam and Secularism.

The point I'm trying but not succeeding in making is that we need to be social activists for better laws that take away the profit incentive for Jews (and other) to engage in vice crimes like porn. SDAs are going to need as many Jewish lawyers (15% of Georgetown undergrad and 33% of the law school was Jewish) and intelligent argument makers in the coming and nearing future during Jacob's time of trouble and in particular the Great Tribulation. I'm still the expert on my position and it's pro-Jewish reform.

I'm sorry I can't keep up with all the issues you are all raising. As far as black-white integration, I'm convinced powerful arguments can be leveled that we have put a sex addiction stumbling block before our youth in the last generation. The out-of-wedlock birth rate in 1970 was 10%. It's quadrupled now to 40% in Indiana and it's 80% of blacks in Indiana. "They shall mingle the seed of men but they shall not cleave" of Dan 2 has literally been fulfilled in my lifetime alone. I'm reminded of Dwight Nelson annoyingly and constantly calling my peers Generation X. What I saw as a prosecutor led me to conclude that we skipped right over XX and this new generation is XXX. For crying out loud with a mega phone, the Internet had 100,000 Web sites linked to child porn by 2001 according to the U.S. Customs Department after operation blue orchid. http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2001/April/custoday_bluorchid.xml

How should porn be defined?

Could this qualify as porn?
Song of Solomon
7:1 "O prince's daughter! the joints of thy things are like jewels,..." [isn't he looking way up her skirt?: there probably weren't swimsuits in that time.]
7:2 "Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.
7:3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins"...
7:7 "This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts like clusters of grapes.
7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine..."

Beloved
7:11 "Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages.
7:12 Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grap appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves." [She's promising him sex if he follows her, right?]

Definition of pornography from Oxford American dictionaries:
pornography |pôrˈnägrəfē| noun. printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.

Isn't this definition very subjective when applied to real life? Couldn't what is considered solely erotic to one person be viewed as having both political and aesthetic significance to another?
Yes there are some situations that are exploitative but what if the industry could be empowering in other situations such as Sex-positive feminism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

Pat,
I couldnt agree more with your last post. You said it well, covered it all in a gentle manner and anything else would seem to encourage more fruitless responses.

I'm not putting the citation for this vile black hate on white Web site, but it's standard thinking in the black male/white female porn genre.

"Now it's time for revenge! Weak white men! Hear my words: start taking better care of your women because we're coming to get them! Our profecy will be complete very very soon! You can be sure of it!

"Our shaman has been feeding our tribe men for many many decades with a magic extract taken from elephant's gonads. His purpose was simple: making an army of warriors with ******* members to take our revenge on white men. We are now ready to unleash our ******* **** power over all their women and get the payback we deserve! The future is ours! And this is the proof of our success!

"Our team of hardworking zulu guerrilla bro's are spending countless hours high on gingko-biloba recolecting the most infamous *** black ***** on white sluts interracial porn ever conceived by men! Our voice shall be heard and our ***** shall be seen all around the world impregnating with our seeds and slaving with our ******** **** swords every possible white woman that sets foot on this sacred land!"

Ezekiel saw vile acts being committed in the temple and he had the decision. Warn people and if they rejected it, the sin was on their heads. Or, do not warn people, be a coward, and the sin would be on Ezekiel's head.

The length of the GPD's chain for world destruction is directly proportional to the level of porn-prostitution we tolerate. People get the government they vote for, and when they fail to vote against Baal, they reap the whirldwind. I can see the angels at the Euphrates releasing the 4 winds of strife in the near future, and I'm concerned that the SDA church is not even closed to being prepared. We're just way too comfortable.

One deficiency I saw in SDA education is that we rarely present the arguments of the other side. For instance, I just heard last night a Catholic radio program talking about immersion. The Catholic announcer mentioned that sprinkling was mentioned in Ezekiel 36 and that when Jesus came up "out of the water" it didn't say he was immersed. He could have come up out of the Jordan while standing getting baptized. He then compared Mk to Luke and said Jesus was praying and then the Holy Spirit came upon him. You can't pray under water. He then said the Didache allowed both immersion and sprinkling. When presented with all that, how would the average SDA respond?

PPPP-PP. Proper Preparation Prevents P***-Poor Performance.

Who will be able to STAND in the coming judgment? Those who are zealous for God's law or those who lukewarmly cower behind that wall of separation of church and state?

Got soul,

Porn refers to a wide range of human sexual misconduct.

It definitely does not include normal, healthy marital sex for "Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." Heb. 13:4

Porn can also be translated fornication, adultery, or prostitution, all of which are violations of the adultery commandment.

The Song of Soloman constantly exhorts women, "8:4 I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that ye stir not up, nor awake [my] love, until he please. " Don't have sex before marriage. It's just not worth it, and those who teach people to do so should be vigorously oppossed, not ignored, with many verbal and political voting lashes of Jesus' temple honor defending whip.

We have now developed a culture where a single porn mule can spread HPV cervical cancer contributing STDs to thousands of late teens and early 20s young women. Now, that's a genocide.

The Jewish pornographers have gotten their fair share of revengs on white Christians. It's time to call a truce and unite the two groups against the real Azazel scape goat, the GPD who is still trying to incite Shem and Japeth into this continual adultery-murder perpetual motion cycle.

I believe some now are posting, just for the purpose of reading themselves, because they can't hear themselves talk. I call your attention to my last name and my age. i submit I have some authority on this subject.

It seems that there is selective outrage, we still live in America with fundemental Freedoms of Speech and Religion. Mr. Zirkle's conduct falls within both constitutional guarantees. For anyone to suggest he be sanctions for his political beliefs or speech or his religious activities suffer as a result of is nothing but facism based on political correctness of the left, and I by the way consider myself quite liberal. The day we do, what is being offered and proposed on this Blog, is the day we b ecome our enemies and cease being what we are.

Very simply, the beauty of America is that you can sit in Church and worship the Lord in a Parish with Conservatives, Liberals, Hippies, Communists, and yes... National Socialists. This is freedom, the foundation of our Republic. It is what makes us who and what we are.

If you want to do what you are saying, then try living in today's Russia or China, or some other 3rd world politically correct society where there is thought police and all is well. I guarantee, you will be back on the morning train and will be more than happy to let Mr. Zirkle and others have their free speech, as their free speech is a guarantee of your free speech. If you don't like what they are saying, walk away, write a rebuttal. BUT NEVER, EVER DENY ANYONE THEIR RIGHTS.

For the person who says it is Biblical to Judge, you are misquoting scripture, the Bible does not grant man the right to Judge, only the man who is without sin, and I do not think there are any of those around, given that, and other scriptures, the right to judge is left to God on such matters.

I suspect Mr. Zirkle's attacks on porography and prostitution strikes a deeper cord with his distrators here than his speech to neo-Nazi thugs, it is just easy to use the nazi wanna bees as a bat to bop Mr. Zirkle on the head with rather than face up to the larger moral issue which people find uncomfortable and more often accomodating.

For me, after all my years and all that I have seen, If had to choose between National Socialists, NOT the Neo-Nazi thugs of today, and those who would do nothing about abuse of girls and children in this so called "industry", I believe I would vote for a National Socialist that would support families, and save our young people. I know that is is a rather strong statement, but after all my years watching what has haappened to our family and faith, it is a statement of self reflection, which I mentioned in my prior message. I would have voted for Mr. Zirkle because of this issue, there is something for courage of conviction.

So would the Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee Jones video that everyone was joking about in the 90's not be considered porn because Pam and Tommy were married at the time?

Alex,

"For the person who says it is Biblical to Judge, you are misquoting scripture, the Bible does not grant man the right to Judge, only the man who is without sin, and I do not think there are any of those around, given that, and other scriptures, the right to judge is left to God on such matters."

Well Alex, (not Carpenter), that would be me... and I ask you to exegete 1 Cor. 5:12,13 for me.

pat

What I find funny is the folks who rush defend this whack-a-mole theology and history.

It's troubling that Zirkle picked up tens of thousands of Republican votes and has Christian sympathizers while displaying this sort of babble: "The real enemy that the GPD is principly using is plane of shinar harlot queen operating that palendrome GGMGG minus a letter in Hb. (God save the queen!) whose image was 6 cubits by 6 cubits by 60 cubits, not directly what Luther called the antichrist of the flesh, militant Islam, who might be the war horse knights."

The roots of this, beyond social and psychological questions (it's disturbing how poor writers these Nazi-apologists are!), lie in resentment, and shutting them off only fuels their it's-all-about-me theories.

This may make some sense while sitting in front of a computer, but not if one gets outside. But that's not grounds for eliminating his free speech. I haven't seen him advocate violence, to his credit, and something tells me that when someone believes in the "palendrome GGMGG minus a letter in Hb" what they really need is some good face-to-face time with a diverse community that cares.

Tony, what church do you attend?

I'm heading outside with a good book.

Tony you wrote:
"We have now developed a culture where a single porn mule can spread HPV cervical cancer contributing STDs to thousands of late teens and early 20s young women. Now, that's a genocide."

Isn't this an issue of poor education that can be rectified with better public policies?
Correlation is not always causation, right?

Also you write:
"Porn refers to a wide range of human sexual misconduct.
Porn can also be translated fornication, adultery, or prostitution, all of which are violations of the adultery commandment."

If it turns out that Paris Hilton was married to the dude in that video, would that take it off your porn list?
Where do cartoons [hentai] fall? Is this still porn if the fictitious characters happen to be married?
What about the fact that there aren't really any victims in this sector except for the viewer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentai

I applaud Mr. Zirkle's desire to eliminate porn. However, if his strategy for doing so is to put black men in their own little corner of the country then I think that I would prefer to vote for someone with a strategy that is more likely to succeed.

Alex,(not Carpenter),

I find it interesting that you resort to insinuations about the morality of those who are standing against Mr. Zirkle's arguments.

With that said, no one is denying Mr. Zirkle his rights. That is why this dialogue is happening on this site. This is why he can run for Congress and freely express his platform. I agree, it is the freedom upon which this nation is built. However, it's curious that in a church that has had a history of censuring people for publicly disagreeing with doctrinal issues such as the 1844 sanctuary message, etc., some of us now think that expressing strong disagreement with Mr. Zirkle's type of rhetoric is "condemnatory judging??"

Paul confronted Peter publicly about his behavior in Antioch, behavior that led to a Jewish walkout on the Gentile believers. He was opposing an act that was racist, that would divide the church, and that totally flew in the face of the gospel. Was Paul guilty of judging?

Mr. Zirkle is not necessarily going to divide the church by his actions. But what he is doing under the umbrella of fighting the evils of pornography, is pushing a twisted racist agenda that endorses segregation of blacks, and targets 'some Jews' who need to reform for fear of what may happen to them, and all Sabbath keepers by extension, should the Neo-Nazis and others rise up against them. Does this sound like a view that truly represents the gospel? And if not, why should he not be confronted? This is not simply about falling short, as we all do. It is about confronting a sustained, public misrepresentation of the God who calls all to oneness in Christ, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religious background.

To suggest that his local church get involved is to put the issue where it belongs, and where it could hopefully be resolved. In my view, hardly judging.

Thanks...

Frank

Got soul,

Pam & Tommy Lee's video becomes porn when others outside their marriage view it. One of the main purposes of porn is to incite others to engage in the secret sin of self-abuse that causes shrunken skulls, diminished breasts and makes the mind turn into a sieve, according to EGW. If the video entices one to lust after a married woman then it is a clear violation of the adultery commandment.

Paris Hilton was not married, so it's fornication in that video. If video incites one to engage in self-abuse, then it's certainly incontenance and effeminate behavior proscribed by the New Testament. If you're Catholic, you might throw in Onanism.

Hentai may incite lust to chld porn or desires as the characters are often Japanese youth looking mixed with Anglo appearance and could be used as a gateway to child molestation.

Mr. Carpenter,

Talk to Dr. Grieg in the Andrews undergrad religion department about GGMGG. It's Gog and Magog, Ezekiel's way of masking BBLBB, Babylon. Bs and Ls are one letters ahead of Gs and Ms in Hebrew.

Mr. Chaffee,

6 entire states do not constite a little corner. N. Carolina, S. Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, & Louisiana are 6 great states. However, that's plan B a generation from now. Plan A is to removed profit by defining porn videos as part of criminal prostitution along with all sexs acts for money. Also included in Plan A is to remove copyright protections for all works glorifying murder of human body temples and mass asset forfeiture for violations of Plan A. Plan A is an appropriate roll for Congress.

Everyone:
To my eyes and ears, Mr. Zirkle's views are so vile and his ways of expressing them are so vulgar that I am surprised and disappointed that he is allowed to post them on this blog. Am I the only one who feels this way?
Dave

Tony, so how is the section from Song of Solomon not porn if it is true that the reader is not married to either party?
Is there a line between art and porn or does all that depend entirely on the viewer or reader?

You write:
"One of the main purposes of porn is to incite others to engage in the secret sin of self-abuse that causes shrunken skulls, diminished breasts and makes the mind turn into a sieve, according to EGW."

Is there some documented scientific evidence for the shrinking of heads and such that your describe? I would like to see the data, otherwise shouldn't it be dismissed as superstition.

Also you write: "certainly incontenance and effeminate behavior proscribed by the New Testament." Could you be a little more specific, where in the New Testament?

Also on this point: "If the video entices one to lust after a married woman then it is a clear violation of the adultery commandment."
Isn't some or most "porn" produced using actors? Aren't these just constructed images and personas that are about as real Batman?

Also you write: "Hentai may incite lust to child porn or desires as the characters are often Japanese youth looking mixed with Anglo appearance and could be used as a gateway to child molestation."
I think that the courts have found what you referenced to be permissible for the reason that it could be argued that it keeps those criminals busy and far away without exploiting anyone, as opposed to being on the prowl. And I don't think this criminal mentality is learned entirely from cartoons.

Furthermore, if the exploitation of women and children can be eliminated with proper regulations and different more empowering outlooks on sex, what is left of your argument?-->
Unless you're really articulating a fear of miscegenation predicated on outdated social constructs and unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex among people you define as being "white." Is this it?

Dave
Exactly! I've argued the same above. I don't know Tony. He is probably not an evil man, but he promotes an evil philosophy. That should be confined to its proper venue, the birthday celebration of the Fürer, not the Spectrum blog.

After the first half dozen racist, misogynistic, rambling, almost incoherent posts from Tony Zirkle and his (very) few Nazi-sympathizing supporters, I felt like you Dave/Aage--let's shut this down. It has no place on a site like Spectrum. However, besides believing in free speech and the ability of our commentariet to judge things like this appropriately, I've come to see this as a rather striking cautionary tale.

Zirkle and his ilk have completely discredited themselves here (his theories make about as much sense as saying that 98.9% of the prison population eats bread, therefore bread causes crime and must be eradicated for decent society to exist). And this thread seems to illustrate the dangers that gets touched on a bit over in the very good interview with Alden Thompson when the challenges of verbal inspiration aren't integrated into a rigorous education that requires an expansion of one's worldview (even though that gets more messy and ambiguous). I'm just thankful Zirkle didn't finish seminary--imagine how much paranoia, hatred, and racism he could spread from a pulpit?

I do think this thread has spent itself out now, and I for one have far better reading to enjoy on other parts of the site (not to mention away from my computer)!

Hear, hear!

Amen!

Frank

Quite frankly, none of you as I, lived through real Nazis and Communists, so you have absolutely no idea of repression. If you did, you would not be taking the positions you are.

I beleive I will now just sit and watch and enjoy the intellectual dishonesty. Of course heaven forbid anyone take the inventory of those doing the judging.

Bet you are all smiles and cheers in Church on Sunday.

Alex,

My wife lived through Communism, and still found what Mr. Zirle is advocating to be repulsive. With that said, instead of taking the easy way out by engaging in ad hominem attacks and considering yourself above all the rest of the "judges" on this site, why don't you respond to Pat, and exegete 1 Cor. 5:12-13. And while your at it, why don't you look at Paul's response to Peter in Galatians before issuing your own condemnation based on what you think the Bible is saying.

A thorough acquaintance with and honest handling of the Scriptures you are resting your judgement on would be appreciated. It's called intellectual honesty.

Thanks...

Frank

Alex,

I have dozens of Eastern European relatives who suffered under Communism. I have a grandfather who fought in WWII and most of the people here go to church on Saturday, not Sunday, being Seventh-day Adventists and all.

You're arguing ridiculous assumptions that just don't exist. This is a post about Tony Zirkle, if you can produce an Adventist politician and former seminary student speaking in front of a giant picture of Stalin and then linking to Anti-semitic sites then you start to have a case, but it's just a waste of your time to create gross generalizations as hypothicals without evidence, particularly when you're embarrassing yourself to most folks here.

Point: it makes no sense that you attack the vast majority of folks here for "judging" Zirkle and then complain - with no evidence - that folks here don't judge harshly the violence of Stalin.

I'll follow the true meaning of that oft-misquoted Bible verse and, yes, let God judge everyone in the world on an eternal level. I don't presume to know a person's heart - but the Bible is full of examples of blessed moral judging by God's people on earth and I sure as hell am going to call a racist a bigot and poor history exactly what it is. We all judge; best to do it for what people actually say.

If you can't be bothered to respect your interlocutors (and web hosts here) by getting the basic facts straight, you might consider reading a good book instead of wasting your time here, expectorating counterfactually into the wind.

Pardon me if I am not up to your intellectual abilities, age may have taken its toll. The verses you cite are note relevant when factored with Christ's own words.

We all know the mess his deciples were in after the crucifixion. My main point throughout my posts was one should always look in the mirror before (self reflection) before placing the rope around someone's neck.

Having known someone who experienced the communists is not the same. I went back and read all these messages. I was horrified, had we been back in the 1930's, there would have been so many good Nazi's here, i.e. "thought police".

Politics has no place in Church. Our Lord witness to the lowest of the low, Would you be considering disciplining our Lord Jesus if he haad gone and spoke to Nazis?

It is interesting that those who didn't live the history are the ones who think they know the most about it.

This seems as appropriate a thread as any to ask, Has anyone read this book? http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/038...

The thesis of the book is that the American Left shares its origins with fascism. Among other similarities, both share a belief in the state as the solution to problems. I haven't read the book, but heard about it on the radio and then read several Amazon reviews.

I had a link sent to me today. Tony Zirkle gave an interview to a "good" Nazi group. A Nazi group that does not base their politics on race or color, they actually have a big disclaimer... WOW. Anyone want the Zirkle interview?? He talks about us and what he understands. I'll post it up if anyone is interested.

David:

I agree that Tony spews vile with no redeeming value to advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I also agree with Cliff on the stance of the SDA Church in Germany during the Hitler era. While I was in the seventh grade at E.M.C. we had a Seventh-day Adventist guest speaker from Germany who made the central point of praising the rise of Hilter and the glorious future for the "Church" under his goverance.

However, I personally see very little difference in the concept of a super race and a "final generation". That may be the spring board for the Zirkle odessey. What ever, I think the editors have cause to limit Zirkle's use of this platform to advance his candidacy. This is not primarily a political forum. I personally am please that the editors allow the degrees of freedom of expression on topic germaine to Christianity for a variety of prespectives. Tom

This is from the Web Site where Tony did his interview the other day. The Interview was in their newspaper and is is just below this "disclaimer" from their web site.

The other Nazi Groups seem to be attacking these guys.

ABOUT THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST AMERICAN LABOR PARTY

The National Socialist Labor Party (NSALP) is an orthodox National Socialist Political Party designed to move National Socialism into the active political process.

The NSALP IS NOT A HATE GROUP OR WHITE POWER MILITIA TYPE ENTITY, NOR ARE WE NEO-NAZIS. WE ARE NATIONAL SOCIALISTS. The NSALP is a National Socialist Political Party based on political, economic, and social theory of National Socialism. We reject and condemn all violence and demand the strictest code of National Socialist conduct and ethics from our membership. Likewise we support and encourage the intellectual growth and development of our members and as a Party will develop Programs to assist in this.

We take pride in honest thought provoking discussion on issues without profanity, personal attacks and language that demeans National Socialism. We do not associate ourselves with many who call themselves "National Socialists", and who have public events and engage in loud, disrespectful profane language and conduct that would be an embarrassment to real National Socialism, National Socialists and our founder.

From the National Socialist People's Observer
10 QUESTIONS FOR MR, TONY ZIRKLE

Thank you Tony Zirkle for taking time from your busy schedule and the abuses of key board commandos of cyber space to participate in the first interview of our new newsletter

National Socialist People’s Observer
1) You ran for Congress in 06 and 08, and ran on what some would say
"radical" ideas. In your most recent campaign you stated you would speak to any group that invited you and subsequently spoke at a "Birthday Commemoration" put on by one of many groups who identify themselves as Neo-Nazi or National Socialist, the "Birthday Commemoration" was Adolf Hitler's birthday on April 20th. And while you are not a member of that organization you have received significant blow back, how has all this affected you, your idea of free speech and more importantly your family?

(Tony Zirkle)
I’ve learned that people don’t listen. They have pre-conceived notions
and knee-jerk react to wild conclusions without evidence to support them.
I’m trying to help people of all cultures and that includes young white
women who are the intentional usual target of the porn-prostitution
capitalists. It seems more difficult to defend the white culture without
people calling you a racist bigot, so I’m not sure free speech in practice
is applied to the white culture as much as it is to others. My family is
strong and fine.

National Socialist People’s Observer
2) Are you aware that there are several groups that identify themselves as and use the name Nazi or National Socialist and that each have their own different philosophy, ideology, and most of all tactics?

(Tony Zirkle)
I am now. I wasn’t really much aware of any national socialist groups
before this campaign cycle, so this election year has been an educational
experience for me.

National Socialist people’s Observer

3) What is your understanding of National Socialism?

(Tony Zirkle)
I have a limited understanding of National Socialism, but I’d like to
learn more. As I understand, National Socialism is more of a centrist
platform that avoids both the communist welfare state on the extreme left and the excesses of selfish capitalism on the right. I’ve always been
pro-family and pro-middle class, so I’ve never fit squarely in either the
Republican or Democrat parties because I’ve always believed the truth was about 60% Republican and 40% Democrat.

National Socialist people’s Observer
4) Are you aware that the NSALP's philosophy of National Socialism is not based on race or ethnicity, and do you agree with the NSALP when it says a person can be a American National Socialist and not be a hate group or white power group?

(Tony Zirkle)
I am now aware that NSALP is not based on race or ethnicity. I agree that someone can be a an American National Socialist and not be a hate or white power group. I also believe white people have a right to defend
themselves against the porn capitalists without being classified as a hate
or white power group.

National Socialist People’s Observer

5) You have raised issues of pornography and prostitution in your campaign and public life. The NSALP agrees that these elements along with illegal drugs destroys families and our cultures. Do you think your opponents are using the "Nazi Thing" and "Hitler's Birthday" to avoid discussing these issues and to try to drown your primary message?

(Tony Zirkle)
It’s possible, but I doubt many of them are that sophisticated in dealing
with me. Many people love to criticize, and the media has thoroughly
brainwashed most of America to hate even the word Nazi without ever even considering seriously the issues. Porn-prostitution is the very most
significant domestic enemy we face, and historically, how a nations deals
with it’s porn capitalists is the most relevant factor in how a nation
experiences poverty, debt and war. Nearly every king in the Old Testament was defined by how they addressed the sex cults of their day.

National Socialist People’s Observer

6) Recently the NSALP ran a Press Statement calling on the U.S. Govt to
hold Israel to the same standard as it tries to hold nations like Laos and
Cambodia with regard to the sex trade. Why do you think there is a double standard when it comes to all things Israel?

(Tony Zirkle)
A few Israelis are heavily involved into international prostitution. It
needs to stop because it’s an international security risk because groups
like Al Qaeda can use “chastity invader” language to recruit. It’s
interesting that once Israel finally passed a law outlawing sex slavery a
few years ago that the number of suicide bombers dropped off
significantly. Israel has far more political power than Laos and Cambodia and it’s presently a closer and more strategic ally, so naturally, the standards will be differently enforced.

National Socialist People’s Observer

7) The NSALP's position is that it is not prejudicial against any ethnic
group but maintains strong opposition to Zionism. Do you believe being
anti-Zionists is the same and anti-Semitic, as many pro-Zionists and
Pro-Israel supporters claim?

(Tony Zirkle)

Arabs are “Semites” too if you mean the word as deriving from Shem, a son of Noah. We should probably define the term “Zionist” before I could
accurately answer this question. I can see a clear difference between
treating Jews equally, which we should, and opposing special treatment
favoring “Zionism.”

National Socialist People’s Observer

8) Given that we are a Nation of free speech and association, are you
shocked at some of the comments and calls within your Church for
"disciplinary" actions for your political positions?

(Tony Zirkle)
My church has a wide tent, and we have members who have also been
brainwashed to knee-jerk react to anything Nazi. No disciplinary actions
have even been commenced in my local church which is where we discipline in the Seventh-day Adventist faith.

National Socialist People’s Observer

9) Who supported Tony Zirkle in your prior campaigns?

(Tony Zirkle)

I’ve had a moderate range of support from both Republicans, Democrats and Independents. I was able to get 30% two years ago against the Republican incumbent. My most difficult opposition has been with the Republican party non-leadership who appear to detest primary contests and with the media who is more interested in printing controversy than realistic economic and political solutions to serious issues.

National Socialist People’s Observer

10) What is your perception of people who consider themselves National
Socialists?

(Tony Zirkle)

I have a positive impression thus far and believe that National Socialists
seek to put the interests of the nation and the common good ahead of the
selfish individual capitalism on the right. I also perceive that they
reject the selfish social moral decay on the left. If National Socialists
can avoid the faction splitting tendencies of almost all 3rd parties, and
if they maintain both a pro-family and pro-middle class platform, then I
can see national socialists growing into a strong political force in the
very near future.

National Socialist People’s Observer

Thank you Mr. Zirkle once again. We know you are quite busy with a
thriving Law Firm and a family and we might add for those that accuse you of being anti-Semitic, your wife and children are Jewish and yet you were welcomed at a National Socialist event this past April 20th. We close with a famous saying that is most applicable to those who affect change: Better to live one day as a Lion, then all your life as a Lamb. Tony Zirkle was a Republican candidate for U.S. Congress in Indiana in 2006 and 2008 who has been heavily attacked for speaking to one of the many National Socialist groups in America and for waging a campaign against pornography and prostitution and exposing big monied Israeli interests in the pornography business.

Oh brother. . .

In reading the history of Hitler, like the folks here, he often cloaked his fears of Jews in moral and nationalist language.

Despite the "we're not that bad" interview here, anyone can go to their website and read their Jew conspiracy theories, use of classic symbols, and their prominent quotes from actual Nazi's. For instance, right under their invitation to join, lies this:

"We must cease to be anonymous, let them curse us, libel us, battles and beat us up, BUT, let them talk about us... Dr. Joseph Goebbels

This clearly undergirds their attempt to recontextualize themselves on this site. It's been telling to see some American Christians express sympathy. Be it know that the same thing happened in Germany in late 20s and early 30s. This sort of right-wing ideology doesn't come open about its true motives.

Hear, hear!

Alex,

On this ONE issue of political economics...Does this "thinking of Tony's" more resemble the "libertarian right", "limited government", or the Centrist-liberal/left economic Republican and Democratic political party positions of today?

(Tony Zirkle)
"I have a limited understanding of National Socialism, but I’d like to
learn more. As I understand, National Socialism is more of a centrist
platform that avoids both the communist welfare state on the extreme left and the excesses of selfish capitalism on the right."

May I suggest that you be more precise with your "right wing ideology" labels.

regards,

pat

PS. The point is that these extreme challenges to individual liberty could not be implemented without the assistence of large and strong central government.

As a philosophy teacher, I saw that quote and came away with a different impression. The Goebbles quote that is. They clearly say that ethnicity has no part in their membership and political philosophy, if that is true, than I would expect to see people of differing origins in that Nazi group. The Goebbles quote I read to mean, yes, let people rant, rave, and vent but at least let there be a discussion so that we (they) get their message out.

Frankly I can care less what political party a person is in, as long as the dialog is productive.

I did see opposition to zionism there and opposition to Israeli policy, whicn is not racism. As far as Christians defending positions, bare in mind us Christians had no problems with Nazis, especially when they were blasting communists.

I actually, as a Professor found this group, and find Tony fasinating. I think Pat has the Libertarian point right on the mark. I saw a lot of Libertarian throughout this specific group.

As for Tony, I continue to pray for him and I think he may have finally found a group that is just right.

Has anyone looked at National Socialism minus the racial crap??? This group would make a very interesting class assignment if I were still teaching.