Maybe Palin should consider cheap one-liners that don’t undercut the serious work and emotional effort that go into community organizing. Many social justice workers, civic organizers, and, yes, even faith communities obviously don’t appreciate the unfortunate remark she made on Wednesday.

My dear friend and former roommate, Paula, is a community organizer with CLUE, Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice. She is trained in education, Spanish, has a Master of Divinity degree, and is on her way to being ordained in the United Methodist Church. She is responsible for organizing faith communities in the Inland Empire (in Southern California) to improve workplace standards, negotiate improved living wages, and challenges local civic leaders to respond to the crisis of the working poor. Paula’s set of “actual responsibilities” is huge because she knows that her task impacts the lives of individuals and families with immediate economic, physical, and emotional needs. Indeed, a governor has the same thing at stake, human lives, when she is called to serve people–so why draw such an unnecessary and mocking comparison? I don't understand why people chuckled at her "clever" remark.

welcome back alex. i agree with almost everything you say here. but i'm not sure she really seems like such a nice person.

Welcome back, Alex!

And come on, Palin wasn't attacking community organizers. As pointed out above, Palin herself has been involved with community organizers. Palin was attacking the idea that being a community organizer is better preparation for holding executive office than is being a mayor.

Did she make her point in a humorous (to some) way? Yes. Was it somewhat dismissive? Yes, but of Obama and not of community organizers (at least that is how her comments struck me).

It's not surprising that the convention audience loved this cheap shot (no, Sean, it WAS dismissive of community organizers, on its way to being dismissive toward Obama as well)---CBS reported that over half the Republican convention delegates have yearly incomes exceeding $500,000. So when McCain looks at the camera and says "I'm gonna work for YOU in Washington," we pretty much know who he's talking to, and it's not poor people who benefit from the hard work of community organizers.

[please do not post as 'anonymous'. Choose some other name. Anonymous violates our guidelines and such named posts will, if continued, just get deleted - Eds]

Palin's remark was clever even if it was insulting, yet it was not nearly as insulting as the comments by Giuliani and others, and IMHO it was (if one was looking for something interesting and/or innovative irrespective of ones agreement with Palin or not) the best remark in her entire speech.

Her remark on Obama's community organising experience is insulting his resume (by denigrating the value of community organising) in response to Obama's insult of Palins resume (by denigrating the value of being a small-town mayor). Obama had, prior to Palins speech, said that he had more executive experience than Palin as the Obama Presidential campaign has more staff and a larger budget than the mayor of Wasilla.

To quote them both,

Obama said,

Well, my understanding is that Governor Palin’s town of Wasilla has, I think, 50 employees. We’ve got 2,500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe $12 million a year. You know, we have a budget of about three times that just for the month. So I think that our ability to manage large systems and to execute I think has been made clear over the last couple of years.

Palin said,

Before I became governor of the great state of Alaska I was mayor of my hometown. And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involved.

I guess -- I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities.

I might add that, in small towns, we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they're listening and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening.

No, we tend to prefer candidates who don't talk about us one way in Scranton and another way in San Francisco.

For my part, I'm not interested in putting down any of the candidates as I find it far more useful to read thoughts affirming a stance one does support. And, in this case specifically, I think it's far more interesting to look into what was said in the context it was delivered.

I guess that I (and several others here) seem to be missing the whole insult or denigration of Palin for being a small town mayor.

It appears to me that Obama is merely stating a fact, to wit: running a massive primary and presidential campaign means more moving parts. If someone from the Adventist Review points out that they have a bigger budget and more people than Spectrum, I'm not offended, as it is reality. This is significant particularly since Obama was himself responding to an attack over executive experience, i.e., taking responsibility for running things. The fact is that his campaign as well as John McCain's requires more people, time and money than a 7,025 person town. That Palin, et al, then ridiculed community organizers (many spiritually motivated) is the actual overreach both on a truth level (they do have responsibility) and on a civility level (why go for cheap laughs by puffing up her political career in the face of volunteerism?).

All this is particularly humorous in light of the fact that Palin immediately fired the city's librarian because she didn't endorse Palin for mayor and then on perceived slowness in implementing Palin's book banning policy and then had to rescind that when the townspeople objected. This was her election results: 616-413.

While it's vital to flesh out issues; it also incumbent to stand up for good community organizing folks when attacked and call a spade (and a poor post hoc justification) what it is. (She didn't really mean community organizers. . .that's why she said being a mayor is like being a community organizer except with responsibilities.)

If you read Palin's remarks and the media-directed talking points preceding it, you see a concerted attempt at manufacturing the politics of the aggrieved which is then used to justify more serious personal attacks. It is vital to not fall into the trap of equivalence - all too often the cry of the uncritical mind.

Please help me understand why exactly Palins comments weren't merely stating the fact that when it comes to government, mayors have actual responsibility?

In questioning the value of the others experience, they both were denigrating the office then held by the other. They, Obama and Palin, are both arguing that their remarks were not digs at small town mayors or community organising, but people hear differently.

Does standing up for community organisers mean obfuscating Palin's remarks with Giuliani's and reading Obama's comments on Palin's experience with a kinder and less critical eye than one reads Palin's comment on Obama's own experience?

I'm trying to see where partisan spin starts and objective analysis stops.

Again, you have not actually shown any denigration of mayors. Furthermore, I'm not familiar with a statement by Palin "arguing that her remarks were not digs at community organizers" I would hope that would be the case, but I'm just wanting to make sure that you're actually reporting facts.

I believe that objective analysis starts in noting the point comparing the moving parts of a campaign and the lack of a statement suggesting that mayors lack responsibility with the statement that community organizers aren't really responsible for much. . .like the civil rights movement.

Kind of reminds me of another comment about Martin Luther King Jr. and Lyndon Johnson. I believe that the context for that was also over a nervous politician trying to talk up the power in position vs. people power. But these folks forget that in a democracy (even one flawed like ours) organizing people to vote and act is where the responsibility lies.

Right on, Alex! I listened most intently to her whole speech (with good writers and teleprompters, plus much practice, she gave a good delivery). The pregnant pause, after she stated that community organizers are somewhat like a mayor.....except without the responsibility, was an excellent delivery for the way she intended it: demeaning to Obama. Voice inflection, looks, and more are conveyed in a speech that cannot be compared to the printed one.

Firstly,
I don't need to be convinced of the value of community organising. You should know that. I was disgusted by the comments at the RNC. That doesn't mean I'm willing to join the group of people that calls our perspective 'factual' and the opposing view 'not actually shown'.

You said,

"Again, you have not actually shown any denigration of mayors."

I said,

"They, Obama and Palin, are both arguing that their remarks were not digs at small town mayors or community organising, but people hear differently."

You said,

"I would hope that would be the case, but I'm just wanting to make sure that you're actually reporting facts."

Indeed there is no statement that I know of as of now from Palin addressing the feeling that she was denigrating community organisers that I'm aware of. Why don't you ask for a statement from Obama addressing the feeling that he was denigrating small-town mayors?

I think a lot of this has to do with our personal belief that Obama wasn't insulting small town mayors by denigrating Palin's experience in Wasilla and our personal belief that Palin was insulting community organising by denigrating Obama's experience in Chicago. Brother, your requests for facts, as your presentation of the exchange itself, demonstrates a decidedly uneven perspective.

The thing is that there is almost no one in the chattering class making the case about Obama and mayors. But note the problem that Christian community organizers are finding with her disingenuous dig.

I also note your admitted lack of evidence for your earlier statement.

Once again, sometimes the facts lead to uneven perspectives.

Despite what the mainstream media would often like (straight even he said/she said stories) this is a case of one side actually being relatively fair minded, while the other is less so.

Johnny is 100% right.
It would be better IMO if spectrum presented issues to be discussed starting at neutral rather than an Obama press service.

In the face of political demagoguery, the Spectrum folks I know prefer honest debate and expressed convictions (even if they don't agree), not the false patina of neutrality, particularly in the defense of the least of these and those who serve them.

It's redundant to mention listening to her speech again. How many here actually heard every word of her speech? Reading the printed transcript cannot convey the tone, expression, and way it was delivered.

It was delivered exactly as it should have been: to demean the Republicans' opponents as lacking in experience and the very poor attempt at Palin to compare her term as a very, very small town mayor and two years' governing a state that is not even the size of Fresno, CA as though it was equal to the state of Texas or California in comparison. Anyone in his right mind could clearly see that the comparison was absurd.

In a roomful of evangelical Christian women, nearly a dozen confessed not one of them were in favor of McCain until hearing Palin. After her speech, the large majority fell in love with her. One lady said that her decision to keep her last baby was the deciding factor!! Great presidential experience there!

Her demonstrated history of attempting to censor the library's books, as well as proclaiming her daughter's "Choice"--a choice she would not give to other girls in the same circumstances, speaks volumes. How much more do we need to see that she's all style and no substance?

"It was delivered exactly as it should have been: to demean the Republicans' opponents as lacking in experience and the very poor attempt at Palin to compare her term as a very, very small town mayor and two years' governing a state that is not even the size of Fresno, CA as though it was equal to the state of Texas or California in comparison. Anyone in his right mind could clearly see that the comparison was absurd."

Whats absurd is Alex and Elaine trying to put words into Palins mouth.
Prior to Palins speech the democratic candidates and handlers were making fun of her by specifically refering to her job as mayor of a small town as her experience. They downplayed (if they even refered to it)her govonorship.

The 2 or 3 networks I switched in between prior to her speech were commenting on this and asking each other how she would respond. They also commented on how this was backfireing badly on the dems. since they were unwittingly setting themselves up as beltway insiders.

This is what she was responding to when she compared her job as mayor to Obamas community service.

THe demeaning BEGAN in the democratic camp in this exchange when they demeaned her work as mayor, NOT when she made her acceptance speech.

Thanks Trisha and Michael Covarrubias. Good luck with the Ph.D. studies.

Johnny,

1. Huh? "Reading off talking points" means that there was clearly a "belittle community organizer" meme trying to be created. Where in the world did you get the idea that it means identical? Talking points are not always identical - who says that?

2. Second huh? You write: distinguish between "the 'they' of the RNC and the 'she' of Palin." I believe that she is now a big part of the RNC message machine.

3. Now you're mentioning context which is always key, but I see that you're not trying the ol' "denigration of mayor" bit which you were earlier arguing.

Earlier you kept bringing up denigrating mayors as a mitigating explanation without even proving the point, with some definitions or by citing a comparable number of non-partisan offended mayors.

However, this raises a much more significant ethical question, which you have not addressed. Does even a perceived slight warrant ridiculing community organizing?

4. What's "unfounded" about noting the fact that it took the GOP Vice-Presidential candidate multiple colleges and extra years before she graduated with a degree in sports broadcasting, which is the height of her formal education? It's actually found in her biography.

Getting to the bottom of this, Rev. Jim Wallis (author of God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It) writes:

"And when you put the accomplishments of politicians alongside those of community organizers for poor families, it isn't even close. Without the pressure from community organizers and the movements they lead, there would often be nobody to hold politicians accountable."

"Palin's effort to attack the experience of Barack Obama, a former community organizer in Chicago, turned into a bad joke and an insult. Palin owes a lot of good people an apology."

I think the bigger issue is whether this person (Palin) is more than a lightweight who has been thrust into prominence by a fortuitous combination of her good looks, assertive personality, and the need for a VP candidate who will be acceptable to the right wing of the Republican Party.

Maybe in the next several weeks we will learn whether she has the kind of calm considered judgment needed by a President of the United States.

Don

How does one evaluate a potential VP or President of the U.S. without taking a hard look at their education, experience, and what they have accomplished during their lives? What suggestions do you have to determine your choice in the voting booth if not those?

Furthermore, there's rumbles coming out of Alaska that paint Governor Palin as a woman with unbridled ambition, sharp elbows, and scant gratitude, even towards the Alaskan GOP that put her where she is.

Should we, then, be surprised, that she turns on the community-organizer PTA moms that supported her in the first place?

Sam Sukaton

Alex,

Please stop being a tool of the left. It does not benefit the Adventist church.

You are clearly not even making an attempt to be non-biased in your analysis. If you believe the purpose of Spectrum is to be a liberal political sounding board, please move towards having the About Us adapted as so.

What's your purpose?

A. To promote Adventism
B. To promote Liberal Politics
C. To look like partisan hacks

I believe that in usual adult discourse, the opponent deals with the issues raised rather than rant.

I write my values. The Spectrum Blog is a place where anyone can disagree with me. I also use my own name. I support community organizers, as I believe that Jesus would too.

You will note that a majority of the readers appreciate a mature forum where folks stand up openly for what they believe in and connect their Adventist faith to their civic duties.

All the partisan hacks I know just go around - sometimes anonymously - attacking people who follow their convictions to care for the least of these.

Alex,
I've gone from having a name to being addressed as 'someone'- thanks buddy!

Elaine,
You said,

Her demonstrated history of attempting to censor the library's books, as well as proclaiming her daughter's "Choice"--a choice she would not give to other girls in the same circumstances, speaks volumes. How much more do we need to see that she's all style and no substance?

Would you say that being against abortion but for contraception is style not substance?

I don't agree with Palin but I will strongly suggest that the way we should talk about candidates, and the way we should make our choice, is by examining their record and platform not by making sexist-tinged hints at her being 'style and no substance' and elitist sounding suggestions of her not knowing her civil rights history.

Indeed, abortion is a substantive issue not a stylistic one and we have no idea what she learned or didn't learn in her six years in higher education. What factual proof is there that she doesn't know her civil rights history?

Are you unable to address the questions posed in the comment?

Alex your attacking people for speaking a different point of view. You are not addressing the fact that people are ALLOWED to have different points of view. You don't allow that. You're making outright insulting commments towards someone because they don't agree with you.

What is the purpose of Spectrum?

You respond with calling me immature in my question. You respond with attempting to say I'm not connecting my faith with my civic duties. Are you claiming that the 60% of Adventist that have conservative ideals and vote Republican are NOT living up to Adventist beliefs?

Can't you accept the fact that they are in fact living up to their beliefs? Just they aren't living up to yours. You don't have to judge someone else's Christiantiy or Adventism. Praise GOD you don't have to do so, that is a task that I would not wish on any Human.

Elaine,

Clearly you have to look at education, experience, and what they have accomplished. Also, there is the matter of intelligence--I would far rather have a smart person in the White House than a stupid one.

But possibly even more important than raw intelligence is a judicious temperament--when making decisions, does he/she look at different sides of the issue, weigh conflicting evidence, and consider the possibility that a first impulse based on instinct or ideology might be wrong? I would hate to think that a person without such capacity had his/her finger on the nuclear button.

One can sometimes discern the temperament of a candidate by reading analyses of their policies and thinking. For instance, there is an article on Obama's economic thinking by David Leonhardt in the August 20 issue of the NYTimes, which I found quite revealing on this score. The url is as follows (I warn you, it's a long article).

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/magazine/24Obamanomics-t.html?scp=4&sq...

Just a start. Don

At least you're consistent. Angry indeed.

>>Are you claiming that the 60% of Adventist that have conservative ideals and vote Republican are NOT living up to Adventist beliefs?

No. (Just curious, do you have a citation for that stat?)

Beyond the minority of American Adventists - less than 9% of all Adventists - when you factor in the American impact on the rest of the world, you do find other reasons than following the crowd to articulate ones values. This is not the Review. Spectrum was born and belongs to the Adventist academic community and thus, like education itself, seeks to go beyond the status quo, dominant politics, and received wisdom.

>>Can't you accept the fact that they are in fact living up to their beliefs?

Yes. Even better is when they make good cases for it.

>>You don't have to judge someone else's Christiantiy (sic) or Adventism. Praise GOD you don't have to do so, that is a task that I would not wish on any Human.

In two and a half years of blogging here, I've never said otherwise.

Now, I'd really like to have a substantive debate, so if we can stop attacking me and falsely suggesting viewpoints that don't belong, I'd love to follow the example of Professor Rhoads and actually read some analysis.

You are though. Your comment is:
"You will note that a majority of the readers appreciate a mature forum where folks stand up openly for what they believe in and connect their Adventist faith to their civic duties."

This is CLEARLY an attempt to call my Adventist Faith and Civic Duties connection off track. You are calling me immature and attempting to denigrate my Adventist Ideals.

You are acting like a partisan hack. At one point someone wise mentioned the disgrace brought about those whom are willing to put their political ideologies before their religious ones. Your religious ideologies, as a Prostestant, dictate there is a personal savior. Your political ideologies are the ones that can't accept someone going against what you believe.

I did not see anyone in the prior conversation put down community organizing. There was a discussion as to what basis Sarah Palin may have made her comments. Honestly who cares what she said or what Obama said? No politician will ever have Christ as the center of their lives. The two worlds do not interact. Politics requires dirtiness. Obama, Palin, McCain, and Biden have all shown that they are willing to do anything to get elected. I am upset that you are willing to have this overt political discussion and attempt to call it fulfillment of your Adventist Civic Duties.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

These are the ideals you should worry about and promote.

Once again what is the purpose of Spectrum? I believe as a member of the Adventist Church I deserve an answer to this.

It's always interesting to see the "angry" folks come in and personally attack - particularly ones salvation.

Since 1968, Spectrum has provided the Adventist educational community and everyone else a forum for discussion of contemporary issues, that continues today online. Go click through our tag cloud and you'll gather more.

>>Obama, Palin, McCain, and Biden have all shown that they are willing to do anything to get elected.

Interestingly, this is another example of a false sweeping generalization. Because you included "anything" this statement is doubly a logical fallacy.

The more one reads critically (and widely) the harder it is to make false equivalence statements like they all "will do ANYTHING to get elected." As facts stack, distinctions emerge.

Furthermore, if one takes Jesus seriously that we should render unto Caesar, then it means that we follow the Word of God when we seek to bring our highest ideals into all our spheres of influence, including the public square.

I believe that Christ is my personal savior, any other representation of me by is a lie. In fact, because of that, I aim to conform my life to His.

>>Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Love your neighbor as yourself. These are the ideals you should worry about and promote.

That's exactly why I blog. . .as a happy Adventist.

Wow, look, Jared is live blogging the Des Ford meeting, let's check it out!

I'm an editor for Spectrum's Cafe Hispano section and I can say that the purpose of Spectrum is to have a free discussion on issues important for the church today. It is not owned by the denomination but it does support it.

Don,
Great point. I'm on page two of the article.

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. King Lear right?

I would rather have a president that agonises over his decisions rather than one who doesn't have a problem falling asleep or feels that they are chosen by God. Bush apparently was certain of the latter and Obama said something to the effect of the former...
/Alan Keyes is the most highly educated man in the GOP!
//Like Obama, F.D.R. went to Harvard
///... so did George W. Bush :/

In reading the article that Professor Rhoads recommended, I'm reminded of why it matters to contend for what we believe. The economy is in a terrible mess, but not as bad as the Depression. By making wise choices about our leaders and calling out unwarranted attacks on Christian community organizing, we can help out a lot of people. It's telling that while the economy expanded since 2000, most people's real income declined, except for the ultra rich who received the tax cuts and political favors of the GOP.

Wow, the last few weeks had alot of good topics and no real catfights all that time. Whats changed in the last couple days?
Alex, You dont have to agree with anyone on any issue but the fact that you fail to even try and understand what Johnny is trying to relate to you is saddening.

But even though you sound pretty opinionated and grumpy since you got back I still agree with you.

By making wise choices about our leaders and calling out unwarranted attacks on small town mayors, we can help out a lot of people.

For the benefit of those who will not be reading the Leonhardt article in NYTimes, let me say briefly what I get out of it: Obama is neither a traditional New Dealer nor a conservative in the present usage of the term, but participates in both traditions.

He recognizes the power of markets to generate and distribute wealth, but also that the unchecked workings of the marketplace inevitably lead to greater and greater wealth disparity. It is up to the people, through their elected representatives, to put judicious bounds and controls on the market, through taxation and regulation. I believe he has this generally right.

But most of all, I see someone whose stay at the U of Chicago, amongst a community of conservative free-market economists, confronted him with these very complicated issues, and he grappled with them and applied his own instincts and intelligence to their solution. This is the kind of capacity for judicious thought that we need in our leaders.

Finally, almost as an aside, let me express my distrust for simple, one liner, sound-bite solutions. There is no single idea which if pursued will solve all our problems, unless it be "think things through carefully". Obama has avoided the trap of being simplistic, at least on the matter of economics. Unfortunately, the American people seem disinclined to anything but simple solutions--so I pray that despite ourselves, by the grace of God, we will end up with a wise president.

Don

We've got an Angry Adventist and Michael psychoanalyzing me as grumpy. It's like we're at a Snow White casting party.

Great to be back!

Unfortunately, since I've gotten some comments directed at me instead of the topic on this, I'll go ahead and point out that this does seem to be a leaking in of the politics of resentment and perceived slights, rather than substance.

Over and over in politics, slights are often manufactured in order to justify attacks. My question is: does a (perceived or not) denigration ever justify implying that community organizers act sans responsibility?

This sort of tactic will come up again. It also comes up in our non-online community contexts too. As folks know, words can have multiple interpretations. One of the things that I try to do is give folks the benefit of the doubt and assume that people don't mean the worst unless they make it clear.

We are going to talk about politics here. In the future, I would ask that we stick with the issues and avoid the campaign tactics of making it personal.

Professor Rhoads, thanks again for introducing a substantive discussion item. I thought that the emphasis on pragmatism was particularly interesting. Compare that to the ideologically hardcore GOP platform and the sacrosanct doctrine of no taxes, even on the folks who can afford to contribute more like hedge fund managers who get taxed at only 15% of their income - one manager made a billion dollars just last year.

Alex,

You failed to comprehend the fact that I find the discussion of Community Organizing, being a Mayor, or Politics as a whole a waste of time.

I came here simply to attack your inability to accept multiple points of view. Don Rhoads has gladly jumped aboard with you praying that we elect a "wise" President, namely Barack Obama.

My challenge to both of you is to leave behind the foolish, time wasting, pointless rhetoric of politics. Decide that you want to promote ADVENTIST ideals, not political ideologies.

I wonder Alex; do you even know the economic basis for taxation? Do you understand why our country has public education? Do you read the books dictating the need for public roads?

There is no Hardcore GOP point of view that says no taxes for anyone. Anyone believing in that does not believe in capitalism. There is though a search for the optimal balance between taxes and economic growth.

The problem present when delving into the complexities of the American Polity is that surprise surprise a huge aspect of it is to have undefined! The founders created huge gaps in the constitution so that each generation could find the best form for the government. This of course now forces you to accept another’s point of view, argue it harshly, but appreciate the fact that there is disagreement. If there was agreement we would no longer have a democracy.

-Angry

We should be very grateful for Sarah Palin's patriotism:

Not once has Russia invaded the state since she became Commander-in-Chief of the Alaska National Guard. Why doesn't the media report positive stories like that?

(Compliments of cartoonist John Branch, San Antonio Express-News)

Dear Angry:

I think politics is pretty important.

Don

"My question to Johnny and others is: does a (perceived or not) put down ever justify implying that community organizers act sans responsibility?"

That is the crux of your problem Alex. Your perceptions. Palin never did put down community organizers. Her response to the democrats attack on her was to contrast both of their former jobs.

When you begin to show a glimmer of fairness and put the Democratic attacks under your same yardstick you might have a conversation on the issues.

Michael: "Palin never did put down community organizers."

Sarah Palin(sarcastically): "I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities."

Thanks Jared. Michael apparently has not read the scores of community organizers of all political persuasions who understood it as a cheap gag. If there is any question, I ask anyone to put their choice of service in place of "community organizer" and see if they appreciate the laugh.

Angry,

I believe that you made your point about it all being a waste of time. . .and yet I see that you're back.

I believe that everyone wants an optimal balance between taxes and economic growth.

Since you're not using your real name, Angry, I don't know if you've been around for our summer series a few years back in which a dozen plus bloggers and I dealt in depth with Adventist ideals, going through the 28 and talking about the future of the church. These sort of attacks, sans evidence reveal more about the care with which you construct your arguments than anything else. Hit that tag cloud and see all the topics with which we've dealt.

This happens everyone once in awhile. When we address a topic that makes some Angry, they complain that we talk about this too much. Unfortunately, they could save themselves the embarrassment of tunnel vision by doing a little historical research. After 2.5 years I've typed hundreds of thousands of words on hundreds of topics, all through the lens of being a dedicated Adventist. When someone attacks me with the incoherent tactic of writing this:

>>My challenge to both of you is to leave behind the foolish, time wasting, pointless rhetoric of politics.

And then follows it with three paragraphs on economic and political ideas. I can only smile.

I'm happy to engage myriad points of view, and everyone is entitled to their opinion; I appreciate disagreement; I get tired of personal attacks and poor reasoning. Since we are part of the body of Christ, I'm always happy when we can move toward harmonious understanding of each other - which includes thinking the best of our co-religionists, even regarding our body politic.

I'm glad to see this discussion pulled back on point: one of our major vice presidential candidates feels justified in publicly scorning community organizers. (It is generous of Alex to ascribe the responsibility for this meanness and judgmentalism to her party. I don't know who's to blame for this, but as the one who said the words, and as the one running for office, Sarah Palin is the one who must take responsibility first and foremost.)

As pointed out, she said, "I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities." That line hit me like a pile of bricks. That line hurt my heart to hear it.

Community organizers have actual responsibilities. Just like mayors. Our country needs both jobs. Palin's statement is simply untrue. False. Perhaps based in ignorance, but certainly not based in fact. And it certainly does NOTHING to end the widespread suffering from poverty, racism, sexism, and systematic disempowerment plaguing our nation.

Palin (and her party, for whatever responsibility they have in this insult) owe an apology to community organizers and the millions of people whose lives are bettered by them. Not because of what their politics and ideologies are, but because they have slandered and insulted hard-working, patriotic citizens across the country.

One things I have been inspired by during Obama's campaign is that I am so, so proud of my country for being a place that can look for leadership to someone who spent years as a community organizer. (Talk about outside-the-beltway experience!) I am saddened by the fact that some of us are willing to sacrifice the respect due to these hard-working people in order to score a small political point.

Johnny, Alex, Angry,

I think all of you should cool it.

Don

Fine point, Don.

Johnny and I already had a chat on the phone which helped in understanding. Apologies to readers for the distraction.

Interestingly, writer - Jan Karon - found this essay and posted it on her blog.

http://bb.mitfordbooks.com/showthread.php?t=25319

Alex & Johnny

Glad you guys had a chat on the phone. I pray that this has been an occasion to deepen and strengthen your friendship.

You both know that I'm an avid Obama fan--even a first-time contributor. But I gotta admit ... that line by Palin on community organizers was pretty funny and effective. Biden admitted as much this morning to Brokaw - with a smile - and that was actually nice to see. It was similar to what Obama said in Denver (I nearly bought a ticket to go, but Iris wouldn't let me :)), yeah, that line about McCain not wanting to follow Osama Bin Laden into the caves. Weren't they both hyperbolic statements intended to make a point stick?

What Palin said reminded me of the ribbing that a pastor friend of mine gives me about being a religion prof. My Palinesque friend tells me, "Being a religion prof is kind of like being a pastor - without real responsibility for souls." I protest, but I already know that he doesn't mean it literally. It's a simplistic critique by a "rival" of the image of self-importance that I must project as a professor.

Back to Obama & McCain, I did think that the Obama campaign's very first response to McCain's pick of Palin gave the impression of a sort of an unnecessary put-down of her small town mayor background, as factual as the statement was. AND, I thought that Palin's line about community organizers was unfortunate and offensive. But Palin's statement, being part of a convention speech where partisan grandstanding & hyperbolic statements are expected, was more understandable to me than Obama spokesman's statement geared toward the public.

Because Obama is my candidate, I do expect more from him and hope that he will not only not misrepresent his opponents, but take a much higher road of being more generous and dignified. I wish that he would truly transcend and show Republicans that being Christian means to not only hold certain values that derive from Scripture, but also to talk to and about one's political opponents with generosity, kindness and courtesy. I find it wistfully ironic that both conventions began and ended each day with prayers (mostly Christian) and contained many overt and wink-wink references to Christianity in between. But mixed in with them were plenty of misrepresentations, ridiculing of the other party, and outright lies. It's quite telling how much Christians have developed a tolerance for untruthful statements and unkind acts (whether in the secular political arena or the religious/ecclesiastical arena).

[This is not to say that I think of Obama as some savior who is above the fray. I'm already profoundly disappointed in the man, some of his policies, and the direction he has allowed his campaign to go, but that make take us further on a contentious tangent again. So I'll stop.]

It's good to waste time together in this circle of friends ;)

I hear what you're saying Julius, but there is a difference between private professional joking and very public political ridicule. I'm willing to grant that politics is messy - no one is an angel. But pointing out the difference between an almost billion dollar presidential campaign with thousands of workers and running a 53 employee town of 7025 doesn't seem like a slight. Perhaps I'm missing something.

One of the things I'm troubled by is that folks who care about social progress are often bullied into apologizing for their position and then think that they win points for attacking their own values and candidates.

What I like about Jesus' method that is he never took the bait of the religio-political bullies. They would try to trip him up over his rule-breaking in order to heal the poor and rethink dogma and he would always push forward into deeper understandings of how God wants us to treat each other.

I get your point about not taking ourselves too seriously, and in my worship this evening, I def. felt the convicting spirit; but I can't see how ridiculing one of the most effective, poorly understood aspects in American social reform is justifiable for the yuks or the political power. In it's context the mayor thing just doesn't seem equal.

Palin and Guilini were in front of 38 million Americans, not two professionals sharing a private, bonding joke.

The onus is not on (mostly) young, idealist Americans working to make our communities better to now act responsibly with their positions; it's on the national Republican leadership - from ignoring Katrina to invading Iraq - to show us that actual responsibility is more than a laugh line.

– Center for Community Change: When Sarah Palin demeaned community organizing, she didn’t attack another candidate. She attacked an American tradition — one that has helped everyday Americans engage with the political process and make a difference in their lives and the lives of their neighbors.

– Assn. of Community Organizations for Reform Now: ACORN members, leaders and staff are extremely disappointed that Republican leaders would make such condescending remarks on the great work community organizers accomplish in cities throughout this country. The fact that they marginalize our success in empowering low- and moderate-income people to improve their communities further illustrates their lack of touch with ordinary people.

– USAction: These groups, and the millions of individuals they represent, are dismayed by the recent dismissal of their efforts in the form of political attacks. Community organizations have been at the heart of every major reform in modern history – from the Boston Tea Party to the civil rights movement for example, the quest for civil rights began when community organizers mobilized the disenfranchised.

– Community Organizers of America: The last thing we need is for Republican officials to mock us on television when we’re trying to rebuild the neighborhoods they have destroyed. Maybe if everyone had more houses than they can count, we wouldn’t need community organizers. But I work with people who are getting evicted from their only home. If John McCain and the Republicans understood that, maybe they wouldn’t be so quick to make fun of community organizers like me.

"But pointing out the difference between an almost billion dollar presidential campaign with thousands of workers and running a 53 employee town of 7025 doesn't seem like a slight."

You'll never get it Alex.

She never contrasted her mayor job with his presidential campaign. It was his after college community organizing. Quit putting words in her mouth.

Thanks Julius for a well thought out post. Some of us would be inclined to listen to what you think about this race.

By the way there was a pretty in depth story on Palin's life where they interviewed on camara dozens of people who know her as well as hours of footage of her in her day to day life as a mayor, chairman of the energy board, her run for Lt. Gov. and Governor. Interviews with Geraldine Ferraro and the first woman Governor from Mass. Jane M. Swift, Clinton appointees, and others gave ungrudging favorable opinions of Palin.

One of the issues the women bristled from was the charge of Palin as a bad mother since she didnt take much time off work with her babies. Everyone accused the purveyors of those charges of sexism. Did anyone else see it?

FoxNews The strategy Room.

Speaking of the important societal role that community organizers play, Slate.com offers the idea that Sarah Palin has far more in common with community organizers than rhetoric to the contrary would suggest.

Community Organizing can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Another story: Soon after I joined the faculty of the School of Dentistry at LLU. LLU opened the orange grove across Barton road for hosuing for faculty. We lived in Redlands, bringing the children to the LLU Church School was a chore and an expense. We opted to buy a lot on Campus St. near Barton Rd. The lots were cheaper the closer to Barton Rd. Some physicians bought lots high in the hills overlooking Barton Rd. and the Campus. One day, a physcian friend invited me to attend a community meeting in the conference room of the local bank. I asked the agenda. He said, that a house was for sale in the hills near his home. That a black family was interested in buying it. He proposed that the community purchase the home and find a white buyer. I, of course, declined to attended. He asked why, Tom? I said, I want the prices to come down on hill property so I can afford to move up there with you! The meeting was never held. The black family moved into our community. They were fine neighbors. Prices only went up. I built my home lot and all for $25,000.00. I sold it five years later for $35,000. The last time I was in Loma Linda, the house was again on the market for $700,000.00 So much for blacks ruining a neighborhood. And so much for community action for the wrong reasons. Tom

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080907/D93228880.html

While politics as usual is the norm, Barack Obama's complete lack of steadfast views, even those concerning economics, is frankly disturbing.

It's funny looking at how things are turning out vs. what was said just last month. I guess being a community organizer isn't so funny anymore. Gov. Palin wasn't the only one laughing about it, just told me how little they know about helping people who need help who would ever look down on something like that?? Obama skills as a community organizer is what's helping him with voter turn out and so much for not knowing anything about economics.

Meg, how timely of you to resurrect this issue with the election a few days away. What's funny about community organizing, in Obama's case, it was about race, launching his career and a whole lot of radical associations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5JctfweRVc

Even funnier, Obama didn't know what one was when he started as one.

Ha. Ha. I thought that stuff sounded very familiar.

Here is Glenn Greenwald fact-checking the lies right out of that nutty video.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/08/fox_news/

NCTer, did you even do some critical thinking on what Andy Martin said? Or are you really hanging around Spectrum and quoting straight from the oh so entertaining talking people on the teevee?

Sean's little source here once ran this organization:

"The Anthony R. Martin-Trigona Congressional Campaign to Exterminate Jew Power in America."

http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2003-07-31/news/operation-baghdad/2

Seriously, read more. Try comparative analysis.

Don't pollute our blog with lies - any reasonable person would think twice before passing on Andy's self-promoting hate. No, seriously. It's a matter of basic facts.

When you post small-minded racists like this, no one will take what you say seriously anymore.

Actually post more, so people can see what the other side is really like. And we can continue to swell the ranks of those voting for Obama because he and the vast majority of his supporters are tired of little scare tactics like using "race" like it's a bad thing.

Until then, I'm going to take echo Rashid Khalidi and "stick to my policy of letting this idiot wind blow over."

Back to my Sabbath rest.