Adventists and the Lure of the Sensational
28 October 2009
Adventists and the Lure of the Sensational
As does anyone with an email account, I quite often receive forwarded messages urgently warning of a computer virus that could destroy my entire hard drive. Or perhaps instead, the frantic alert (with an all-caps subject line followed by a dozen or more exclamation points) is about a certain combination of phone keys (# + number + number), that can bring disaster if pushed.
My default response, if it’s a warning I haven’t already received, is to check it on www.snopes.com—or more recently, also on www.truthorfiction.com. Usually, those two leading “urban legend” sites will confirm that the warning is a hoax.
On occasion, I’ve emailed the sender who forwarded the message to me, suggesting that they might wish to consult those sites in the future before forwarding similar messages, should they receive any. But I still have contacts in my own email list who thank me for the suggestion, only later to send yet another such forwarded message, this time boldly claiming, “This has been checked by Snopes and found to be genuine.”
Of course, when once again I consult Snopes, I discover that this one too is a hoax—usually one that began circulating many years earlier.
A few days ago, I received a forwarded warning too new to have yet shown up on the Snopes/TruthorFiction radar. This one assured me that the U.S. is intent on enforcing the H1N1 flu vaccination, and that anyone refusing it will be rounded up and hauled off to a concentration camp. Hmmm. If true, this would be a magnitude of order or two beyond my hard drive being trashed.
It took some research, but I wanted to learn what I could to share with the friend who forwarded it on to me. As with most such rumors, this one is built on some underlying facts. But on that foundation, all too often is built a towering edifice of pure fiction or speculation.
On October 8 of this year, the Massachusetts legislature signed off on a bill to state more carefully the powers of public health officials to isolate or quarantine people to contain a major outbreak of a serious contagious disease—a rampant pandemic.
But that Massachusetts action (most states have laws, more than 100 years old, allowing for people who pose a public health danger to be isolated or quarantined), in no way translates to a law mandating vaccines for swine flu.
In fact, says Jennifer Manley, a spokeswoman for the Massachusetts Department of Health, “There will absolutely, positively not be any mandatory vaccines for the H1N1 virus in Massachusetts.”
After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, many states reviewed and updated quarantine laws to ensure that, among other things, people’s civil rights are not violated. But some—particularly those with a certain political worldview—have clearly misinterpreted those efforts and assigned insidious intent to them.
As I’ve observed the phenomenon of those who habitually seek out, unquestioningly believe, then spread various rumors and unproven and usually baseless conspiracy theories (whether concentration camps for vaccine refuseniks, deadly computer viruses, a U.S.-orchestrated 9/11 attack, a staged 1969 moon landing, or various theories centered on the deaths of JFK or Princess Diana), I’ve been puzzled, amazed, and at times, appalled.
Until sometime in the previous century, many conspiracies were nurtured largely by two societal subcultures: the militantly anti-government political right, and Christian fundamentalists concerned about an end-time emergence of the Antichrist. More recently, these two subcultures have experienced a significant measure of blending.
Typical foci of such conspiracies include the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, Freemasonry, the Rapture theory (for such it is), and various fears of total government control, whether fascist, communist, socialist, totalitarian, or dictatorial.
With the increasing merger of the political and religious, many such conspiracies have become part of the general culture. And perhaps because Seventh-day Adventists have an apocalyptic and millenarian expectation (though a unique view of the latter), this church has a more than passing interest in any theory or rumor, as seen through that eschatological lens.
It’s distressing, of course, to realize that the Adventist Church has not yet fully left behind a susceptibility to time-setting, despite the Great Disappointment. Quite regularly, preachers or speakers—usually self-appointed—develop a large following at the peripheries of the Church by emphasizing an end-time message that is typically not only fear-based but that actually or approximately sets a time for the Advent.
More distressing, however, is the observation that so many church members indiscriminately accept without examination the validity of the latest sensational information to flash its way around the Adventist Grapevine. Whether the latest prophetic dream or vision of an angel announcing the time of the Second Coming; an embellished or selective retelling of something the pope has just said; or some event said finally to be the trigger for the time of trouble, close of probation, seven last plagues, or a national Sunday law, the news flashes quickly church to church, member to member.
In this digital age of email, social networking sites, and texting, the good old Adventist Grapevine moves with astonishing speed.
What is it, I have so often wondered, that makes us no less—and perhaps even more—susceptible than others to the sensational? Why do we seem to thrive on the adrenaline rush of the latest iteration of Adventism’s end-time version of the color-coded national security chart? Yes, the end is nearer by one day at this moment than it was 24 hours ago. And yes, we are Adventists, who believe in the relative imminence of the Second Coming. But that does not mean we should live in a state of perpetual red alert or extended and unrelieved near-panic?
There is something that could be called “alert fatigue.” There is such a thing as a little boy crying wolf too often to be taken seriously anymore.
Perhaps, like some Christians of a more charismatic inclination whom Adventists sometimes charge with a hyper-emotional, sensation-seeking religion, this church is also not immune to the lure of a religion that makes the blood race and the heart pound.
Yet not only does this risk emotion leaving reason and careful examination behind, it also charts a far different path from that forged by the One who lived with perfect, steady calm at His center and found power not in the induced frenzy of the latest electrifying gossip but in nights spent in prayer and quiet meditation.
Search
- Steve Moran on Mt. Ellis on the Brink of Winning Big
- Bonnie Dwyer on Mt. Ellis on the Brink of Winning Big
- Donna Haerich on Fascinating Adventist Mathematics
- victor on Fascinating Adventist Mathematics
- Andre Reis on Hate Speech?
- Your Friend on Fascinating Adventist Mathematics
- Your Friend on Hate Speech?
- Donna Haerich on Hate Speech?
- Your Friend on Laughing in Church
- bevin on Hate Speech?
Comments
Wait...why are you surprised that a group of people whose entire worldview is based on bronze age mythology, and who are constantly told by their leaders to ignore evidence that doesn't fit their preconceived ideas would have stunted critical thinking skills?
Conspiracy theorizing is a very American phenomenon that is part of our national history. Right wing fundamentalist Christian groups along with Adventists, have turned it into an art form.
When public evangelism is based on an eschatological scenario of a papal conspiracy that will force the final apocalyptic showdown, complete with living color scary beasts, a certain type of people will continually be attracted and even join. Unfortunately, they will also bring with them a tendency to find things like the New World Order under every rock.
I remember an evangelistic series run by a well known Amazing Facts evangelist in 1999 in NY. Y2K was focused on each night more than the cross. it was the next disaster coming. We all saw how that played out! If the guy in the spotlight, as a representative of a major evangelistic organ of the church with official endorsement from leadership, is irresponsibly trumpeting such nonsense, what can we expect from those who heard him, and still joined our ranks?
Like attracts like...
Thanks...
Frank
"...the militantly anti-government political right..."
The political right is only militantly anti-government when they aren't in charge.
I agree with this article that we have to be careful about all the sensational rumors out there. But the opposite extreme is also dangerous-burying our heads in the sand because we do not understand how to separate fact from fiction or are afraid of some things going on in the world.
I have received many such things in the mail but always wondered about the truthfulness of some of it because it seemed unsubstantiated. It was so wonderful to hear about the dvd series by Professor Walter J. Veith called Total Onslaught. At first i was skeptical because of some previous things i had read that were not well researched, but after i watched the whole dvd series my eyes were opened and prophecies from Scripture made much more sense as i saw the various entities satan has used to set up his last moves on the chess table coming together for the last final struggle against God and His saints. When i watched his smaller series Total Onslaught-2005 Alberta Campmeeting, where he was speaking to SDA's so he was able to use more of what Ellen White says about these subjects, i saw clearly that this is a subject that is important to understand. With what she says about these things as a base to go by, i saw that we can use these principles as a guide to separate fact from fiction. My whole spiritual life was revived by his series and i am more prepared to stand firm in the truth of God when powers will try to sweep us up like a flood in the very end of time.
I also highly recommend Walter's newest series Rekindling the Reformation. The history of the Reformation and how it applies to today is so uplifting and brought tears to my eyes and courage to my heart in a way i had never experienced before.
satan tries to keep us from having some knowledge of these things by using people that do not research their material, so we will be unprepared for what is ahead. I thank God that he has raised up intelligent and well-researched and balanced men like Dr. Veith to show how we can be better prepared for what is coming and have a closer relationship with God through an appropriate study of these things.
Let us avoid both extremes of fanaticism/unresearched excitement and throwing out the baby with the bathwater because of those who have run with an ill-researched message that makes us look like we are crying "wolf wolf".
I have a number of well-educated Adventist friends who have forwarded me emails about Obama being a Muslim and not being a US citizen or other ridiculous charges. It seems we are addicted to scandal as well as conspiracy theories.
Carrol...
I've received the same drivel. Interesting that I never receieved anything from Adventist friends about GWB being a member of the Illuminati, or Cheney and the CIA covertly behind a scheme to create a one world government.
It seems now that all such conspiracy nonsense is attributed by these people to Democrats...especially one with a non-Christian sounding name.
Maybe the addiction really is to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Fox News. :)
Thanks...
Frank
Maybe the addiction really is to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Fox News. :)
Thanks...
Frank
Posted by: frank7 (not verified) | 29 October 2009 at 8:23
If that were the case I'm sure a majority of the country would be SDA.
Fox News ratings not only double all other news networks combined but they have more people watching at 3:00am than competing networks do at 8:00pm.
When I looked into the Fox news numbers during some shows there were actually more democrats and independents watching Fox than their were watching CNN or MSNBC.
If that were the case I'm sure a majority of the country would be SDA.
Michael
You must not understand the viewership numbers. Even during Beck or O'Riled only 1% of the population is watching Fox. If every single SDA was watching them at the same time SDA's would only make up 1/3rd of their viewership.
Progressives seem to be independent, freethinkers and have better things to do than watch what some idiot on TV is raging on about.
As a recipient of frequent "urban rumors" I go straight to snopes.com and send them back to the orinator and tell them it's untrue, and I do not forward them.
People that believe all they read and hear are either anxiously looking for some proof that they are right, or else they have been programmed by prior reasons (religious?) to readily accept such misinformation.
PS
Its been so long ago that I watched TV for news/commentary that I can't even remember when it was. Maybe when the World Trade Center was brought down by religious fundamentalists?
From the article:
--
Until sometime in the previous century, many conspiracies were nurtured largely by two societal subcultures: the militantly anti-government political right, and Christian fundamentalists concerned about an end-time emergence of the Antichrist. More recently, these two subcultures have experienced a significant measure of blending.
--
Really just the political right and Christian fundamentalists huh? Not those far left "9/11 truthers" or the man made Global warming people who say the ocean will soon flood New York etc. Or what about those leftists of the 60's and 70's who feared the population explosion and then the coming global ice age. Or remember Environmentalist and actor Ted Dansen saying in 1988 that the ocean only had 10 more years until it would be completely dead. What about the nonsense the Earth Liberation Front believe?
Only Christian Fundamentalists? what about the Islamic who believe in the 12th Imam? Or those like Iran's president who believe that there was no Holocaust against the Jews in World war 2.
What a selective memory some people have, the real question though is why do they have such a selective memory?
Ron
FOX News Channel Dwarfs Cable News Competition in Remarkable First Quarter Ratings Surge
The O’Reilly Factor Marks 100 Consecutive Months at #1
CNN Ratings Collapse – Network Plummets 21% in Prime Time 25-54 Demographic During Extraordinary Quarter for Political and Economic News
NEW YORK–(BUSINESS WIRE)–FOX News Channel (FNC) expanded its ratings dominance among its cable news competition in all categories during the first quarter (Q1) of 2009, beating CNN and MSNBC combined in viewership according to Nielsen Media Research. Marked by President Obama’s first months in office and an escalating economic crisis, Q1 2009 was FNC’s third highest rated quarter in prime time in the network’s history – behind Q4 2008 (Presidential election) and Q3 2005 (Hurricane Katrina). Among all basic cable channels, FNC ranked second for the quarter in prime time viewership, with CNN and MSNBC lagging behind at 17th and 24th, respectively.
In prime time, FNC bested CNN and MSNBC combined with an average of 2,250,000 viewers (up 24%) during Q1 2009, compared with CNN’s 1,126,000 (down 10%) and MSNBC’s 950,000 (up 22%). In total day, FNC also rated higher than the competition with 1,203,000 total viewers (up 26%) compared to CNN’s 740,000 (up 17%) and MSNBC’s 473,000 (up 20%). FNC ranked fifth among all basic cable channels for the quarter in total day viewership while CNN and MSNBC followed at 14th and 28th, respectively.
In the key 25-54 demographic, FNC expanded upon an already commanding lead in prime time averaging 511,000 viewers (up 19%) compared with CNN’s 343,000 (down 22%) and MSNBC’s 343,000 (up 7%). In total day, FNC averaged 317,000 (up 23%) compared to CNN’s 236,000 (up 7%) and MSNBC’s 180,000 (up 11%).
FNC also secured 9 out of the top 10 programs in cable news for the quarter based on total viewership. The O’Reilly Factor marked #1 for 100 consecutive months in March and led all programs with 3,387,000 viewers, up 27% over last year. Rounding out the top five programs were: Hannity (up 36%); Glenn Beck (up 90%); Special Report with Bret Baier (up 39%); The FOX Report with Shepard Smith (up 29%); On the Record with Greta Van Susteren (up 26%).
In January, FNC launched three news programs which have posted significant ratings gains over Q1 2008. Glenn Beck (5:00 – 6:00pm ET) averaged 2,233,000 (up 90%) in total viewers and 548,000 (up 115%) in the 25-54 demographic. Beck was also the fastest growing program in all of cable news in March – up an astounding 118% (2,271,000) in total viewers and 171% (580,000) in the 25-54 demographic when compared with the same time period in March 2008. Special Report with Bret Baier (6:00 – 7:00pm ET) averaged 2,037,000 (up 39%) in total viewers and 446,000 (up 41%) in the 25-54 demographic. Hannity (9:00 – 10:00pm ET) averaged 2,671,000 (up 36%) in total viewers and 646,000 (up 35%) in the 25-54 demographic. All three new programs beat CNN and MSNBC combined in total viewership during their respective time periods.
FOX News Channel (FNC) is a 24-hour general news service covering breaking news as well as political, entertainment and business news. For more than six years, FNC has been the most watched cable news channel in the nation. Owned by News Corp., FNC is viewed in more than 90 million homes.
The O’Reilly Factor marked #1 for 100 consecutive months in March and led all programs with 3,387,000 viewers, up 27% over last year.
Ok, I'll show you the calculations.
US Population est Jan 1, 2009: 305,000,000
O'Riled's viewers: 3,387,000
(3,387,000 / 305,000,000) x 100 = 1.11%
Your response to Frank7's wondering if
Maybe the addiction really is to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Fox News
by claiming
If that were the case I'm sure a majority of the country would be SDA
is absurd. As you can clearly see from the simple math Fox's top-viewed program is only seen by barely over 1% of this country's population. To extrapolate 1% into 150 million Adventists is ludicrous.
Michael...
Rather, it is the Adventists that send this drivel out about Obama who reflect the right wing paranoia that so characterizes talking heads like Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, and many who listen to them. It's not about the majority of the country becoming Adventist, it's about this type of Adventist who is like this particular sector of the country. They've bought in to the conspiracy nonsense!
It just so happens that Adventist eschatology is also built partly on a conspiracy scenario. What link there is, if any, I don't know.
Thanks...
Frank
The Fox News mentality and tactics are tracable back to Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisc. Newt Gingrich, a Joe McCarthy with bains, gave the genre legs. Americans love that Halloween rush in their politics and their religion.
Certainly Wm. Miller captured a significant following in the North East. Current SDA evangelism is cast in the same mold.
The "woes" are the currency of Fundamentalism in all of its forms.
The classic example of American mind-set is the hysteria following the radio broakcast of the "War of the Worlds."
The Gospel is of an entirely different genre. It invites, it says: "Look up for your redemption draweth nigh!" The Gospel is like the cry of "Mail Call" on a lonely island in the South Pacific.
I had a pen pal that always put a little fragrance on her letters. The First Sergeant would say to a GI up front--past this back to Tom. So 50 or more guys would get a whiff of that fragrance as it slowly made its way back to Tom. I always got a laugh and a thanks Tom.
The smell of the Gospel is heavenly, not the blood and guts of endless war or the smell of fire and brimstone. It is the smell of the garden of Eden and the sound of running water clear as crystal right from the throne of God.
Worship in Zwemer household during the Great Depression was full of fragrance as were all of Graham Maxwell's Sabbath School lessons or reading the Bible through. Alden Thompson has the gift also.
SDA evangelists should learn they are not in "bughouse square" but in the House of the Lord.
If their message doesn't have the cadence and confidence of the 23 Paslm it is not evangelism. Tom
After 8 years of watching Bush bashing and conspiracies I don't think Fox news is the problem. How short are your memories? I can remember the same stuff aimed at Reagan. This is just a way to try and silence the only people who dare to criticize the anointed messiah Obama. Come on, if the other networks were doing their job we would not have Fox to worry about. Liberals seem very very thin skinned. Maybe if they hadn't done it to Bush things would be more civil.
But the article makes a good point. I hear all kinds of things the Pope is allegedly doing. Most of which are nonsense.
Btw, did you hear about the plot the Adventists have to enforce National Saturday Laws?
Tom wrote:
--
The Fox News mentality and tactics are tracable back to Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisc. Newt Gingrich, a Joe McCarthy with bains, gave the genre legs. Americans love that Halloween rush in their politics and their religion.
--
What nonsense. You are seeing the whole conspiracy theory idea played out right here on the comments sections. Big claims made by ill informed people. That is how all these things start and there is no place on the political spectrum that does not have these kind of people. There is no religion that does not have these kind of people.
Then some media source picks up the idea. Such as Fox is horrible because it is not predominated by the liberal bent of CNN MSNBC or the other networks. Then some higher power gets involved like the Obama administration and tries to say no they aren't what they are we should exclude them and the peons of the poorly informed go along with it. That is how sensationalism works. not with facts but with half baked ideas bought into because it seems to be a good idea to someone because it feeds their prejudice or fits into their world view.
Of course to anyone who has sufficient information and a bit of critical thinking experience it seems foolish that people should continue with their prejudice. But of course if they only listen to others with their prejudice and anyone who disagrees is viewed with suspicion their sensationalism or conspiracy theory thrives.
Ron
Keafan
You have completely missed the point twice now.
If you knew anything about statistics you would know that there are more democrats watching fox news than there are democrats watching CNN or MSNBC.
If you will carefully read Franks initial post you will see it said more than individual shows. It said Fox News. 90 million people watch fox news. Total viewership.
I was only saying that it would be nice if an additional 90 million people were in the church since Frank as saying that Adventists were Republicans getting their viewpoints from fox news.
However it seems for some people whenever Fox News is mentioned the cognitive section of the mind shuts down and the base animal instinct takes over.
We have Tom saying fox is like McCarthy ( which is dumb because having legal power was what that was about and Fox has none) when actually Obama is like Nixon trying to shut out the press.
If people were students of history it is a free press and a free press alone that makes democracy work. Currently we have mostly Obama suck ups in the US press and their viewership is plummeting as it said in the article. That leaves the truly deranged listening to the Obama fan club on the other networks. And from the far left even the center seems to be the other side of the road.
Further we have all of Obama's statements on how ethical and transparent his administration was going to be, all of which has turned out not to be the case.
A lot of baloney about Adventists liking sensational and using conspiracy theorists and theory's to get it is well over the top. A couple dumb chain letters from friends is hardly an astute gauge of the theory.
Lets gauge peoples sense of propriety. I want you all to watch this video and then tell me what the left would be saying if the subject was Obama instead of Bush.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2009/10/23/gore-vidal-obama-too-i...
The lesson you should be experiencing is how the country is moving away from Obama and his programs (and all the polls back this up) and yet when outrages that the left would be decrying to the end of time are not even mentioned when the subject is Bush. So much for the principled caring we're better than Christians party.
BTW, Fr. Jim...
I just received an article via e-mail that Croatia's government is enforcing National Sunday legislation as of Jan. 1st, 2010. The article claims that all businesses will legally have to close on Sundays with the exception of gas stations, bakeries, etc. Restrictions will be eased during the holiday season and the summer.
The rationale behind such legislation is to provide time for family and worship. Croatia's government supposedly has bowed to pressure from the Catholic church. The church wields considerable political influence in the country, which has an overwhelmingly Catholic population.
My question is, is this true, and if so, have you heard of this? I'm hoping it's not. I'm hoping that it's simply more groundless internet sensationalism.
Secondly, if this is true, where would the directive to pursue such religio-political policy originate from within the the church, if not from Rome? Could such a course be pursued without the Vatican's knowledge or approval?
Thirdly, would you consider this to be an inappropriate crossing of state/church boundaries? If not, why not?
Thanks for your consideration....
Frank
It think the issue is not Sunday Laws or the Catholic Church.
I think the issue is: Does Rev. 14 foretell that apostate protestantism following the lead of Rome will make Sunday Worship the final test of the final generation?
That is a stretch that even Wm Miller couldn't buy.
It may hoppen, but it ain't in the Bible.
Tom
"Only Christian Fundamentalists? what about the Islamic who believe in the 12th Imam? Or those like Iran's president who believe that there was no Holocaust against the Jews in World war 2."
You are so right, Ron. To characterize SDAS as especially addicted to sensationalism is one of the anachronistic characteristics of Spectrumitis. It doesn't matter whether left, right or in the middle many people of all faiths and no faith love a new and titillating story, true or false.
To depict William Miller as has been is bad taste and further evidence of the mindset of so many who write here.
Irregardless of the "goings on" in the government, we have been warned by Jesus of the signs, miracles, false prophets to fall upon us showing us to be alert.
These have been happening all throughout the ages; my dad would hear "End of the World" when he was my age (30+ years ago), but 30+ years later we're still here, alive and kicking.
No one knows the day nor the hour, but we should still keep a viligant eye open for what is going, conspiracy theory or fact.
If the conspiracy theories wake up people to research and find the truth, than praise God!
Frank,
It is hard to tell if it is true. All I can find are Adventists sites trumpeting the news. As if what little Croatia does will really have an impact anywhere else. In the South Pacific there are Adventist Islands where nothing happens on Saturday. Has that reduced freedom of religion world wide?
But let's say it's true. So what? In the US both Saturday and Sunday are holidays. In Muslim countries it's Friday. In Israel it is Saturday. The US had "blue laws" on Sunday's from the Puritans, but that didn't mean that Adventists were being hung from trees. The Catholic Church has other important issues that concern us. Do you see any sign that Obama and the current Congress are subservient to Rome? Me neither.
The Church has limited influence. Governments made up of Catholics can do things without Rome's approval. Look at most of Europe. They do it all the time. But the Church does have the right to have its voice heard. That is freedom of religion and speech at work. We have the same right the Adventist church does to seek to influence our governments policies. Or the baptist church which makes sure certain counties are "dry" counties. We actually have more to fear from Protestants given the history of the US.
Your Friend
Please. Wm Miller was honestly mistaken and honestly admitted his mistake. One cannot say that about 50 others. Even those fifty went off in different directions. The major and most persistent of that original fifty were almost corrected during the decades between 1950 and 1980. Now the resistance has either left town or gone underground. To adher to mistaken exegesis is one thing. To promote it is quite another and to question the motives, logic, or intentions of those who protest the misuse of Scripture is quite another.
That we will each be judged prior to the parusia is not in question. That that judgment will rest on our acceptance of our need for salvation and that Jesus Christ is indeed our Savior is not in doubt.
It is the leap frog of Scripture from Daniel to Hebrews to Revelation that is the theological problem. It is at least one "water lily too far"! Tom
Tom...
Sunday worship as a test may not be explicitly stated in the Bible, but to me, there are enough examples of the power of religion and state alliances coming against those declared out of step with them to constitute a mini theme in the Bible.
The decree of enforced worship by Nebuchadnezzar and the manipulation of Darius by state officials to get at Daniel both reveal the political use and state mandating of worship to achieve its ends. In the NT, the death of Jesus was engineered when religious leaders co-opted the state's power in the attempt to destroy him, as well as the perceived threat of the particular fledgling messianic movement within Judaism. In this case, it was religious hierarchy attempting to manipulate the state to achieve its own ends. And hasn't this been a characteristic of human history? The church of the Middle Ages, Calvin's Geneva, Puritan New England, etc., are all demonstrations of the same toxic mix.
Paul speaks of rulers and principalities and powers not only in the heavenly realms, but also of this present age. Wouldn't the legal enforcement of worship and subsequent threatening of liberty religio-political alliances be a particular way that those powers are at work, as seen from biblical times up to the present...like in Croatia today?
Such movements are not necessarily limited to Sunday worship as a test, but they can surely include it, could they not?
Thanks for listening...
Frank
And I should add, if what is being said about Croatia is true.
frank
Frank,
"Such movements are not necessarily limited to Sunday worship as a test, but they can surely include it, could they not?"
It is worthy to note that "Sabbath keepers" crucified Christ.
That SDA's, The German Church, and RCC stood by watching the persecution of the Jews preferring the co-op efforts to raise Germany from the ashes through socio-political-"religious" efforts to the dismay of the "Sunday keeping confessing Christians" such as Bonhoeffer of Germany.
Point? While there may be an association related to the "creator of the heavens and the earth" it most certainly is not I suggest the only issue, that is, regarding a day of worship alone...and I might add nor "the most important one."
Christ and Him crucified accepted by faith as Lord and Savior is. A potential stumblingblock and offense to many who "worship" on ANY of the above days in history.
And,... "you will be hated of all nations/gentiles because of me."
regards,
pat
~"We actually have more to fear from Protestants given the history of the US."
I would agree with you Fr. Jim. Protestantism has bred more than its share of intolerance throughout American history, much of it directed against Catholics in the 19th c.
~"But the Church does have the right to have its voice heard. That is freedom of religion and speech at work. We have the same right the Adventist church does to seek to influence our governments policies."
Yes, I agree in principle. But when any church seeks to influence government to legislate on issues of worship, especially issues that will disenfranchise religious minorities, or cause legal retribution and consequences to those who would violate said law, then the church's so-called freedom to have its voice heard has now crossed the line to violating the freedom of those minorities who are in dissent. And the consequences do not have to cross into hanging anyone from trees, as you said. But, how about paying hefty fines for opening your business on Sunday? Or jail time?
In a country like Croatia, such a state of affairs would constitute a tyranny of the majority. In our country, this is something that Jefferson and other founders addressed at length, and the separation of church and state guards against.
Yes, we have blue laws on the books that are never enforced. And yes, we have a present administration that certainly doesn't bow to Rome. But we have had the attempts to enforce Sunday laws before Congress in our history. One would have to go back to 1890 to see when it was argued down. We also presently have a movement on the religious right that seeks not just to have the right to speak to political power, but that desires to gain control of political power and the public square.
And given the power and the circumstances, the concern I have would not simply be their attempts to legislate morality, but the attempt to legislate a particular worship...in the name of God and family. And yes, I agree that it would be more a concern coming from a politically empowered Evangelical Protestantism, than from Catholicism in America.
Thanks...
Frank
Well put, Pat. Whatever the issues, persecution over the name of Christ is at the core. My point is that it can take various forms, and can come from a coalition of powers that do not belong together. Any church in bed with any state power breeds trouble.
Thanks...
Frank
Frank
One might include in your list this fact.
How many religions other than Catholicism, does the US send ambassadors to?
Jim may brush off the Position the RCC seeks to attain in the politics of the world with micro similarities but in reality its a whole other magnitude and everyone knows it.
As Christians, Christ has our full focus and attention. As conspiracy-believing Christians the sensation in itself, the fear that follows, the endorphin rush, the gossip that follows, etc. has our full attention.
We have to chose - either Christ and His Word or the conspiracies that very often,if not always, contradict the Word.
Toby Joreteg
"Any church in bed with any state power breeds trouble"
Agreed!
regards,
pat
If you will carefully read Franks initial post you will see it said more than individual shows. It said Fox News. 90 million people watch fox news. Total viewership.
Frank's post was a doctored lie. I don't know where he got it from (no link was provided), but it is NOT the original press release put on Business Wire by Fox News.
Here is the pertinent section of the original press release:
Owned by News Corp., FNC is available in more than 90 million homes.
Here is the doctored realease from Frank's post:
Owned by News Corp., FNC is viewed in more than 90 million homes.
The Playboy Channel might also be available in 90 million homes. Being available has nothing to do with the number that viewed the channel.
I stand behind my math. At any given time of the day, less than 1% of the US population is watching FNC. On top of that, the 1% that are watching and think FNC is reliable are old white guys in the south.
(link to original press release as posted by Reuters):
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS196957+31-Mar-2009+BW200...
If I were the webmaster any discussion about the reliability of Fox News or this "white guy" stuff would be deleted immediately. Playing the race card is totally inappropriate.
Frank, closing business on Sunday does not force anyone to worship. Some would use your arguments to say the Church should not try to outlaw abortion. The fact is that someones views are going to become law. We see no reason for us to just sit by and watch somebody else shape the law their way and encroach on our faith. Someones morality is going to be be legislated. There are already laws on the books regulating businesses including their hours. On those Pacific Islands visitors are told that since everyone is an Adventist there is no business on Sunday, so adjust to the local custom. Is that wrong? Should Adventists be forced to work on Saturday to satisfy a minority? Societies make rules based on what works best. In Muslim societies they get Friday off because if 99% of the population is Muslim that makes sense.
The idea that there is some Roman plan to enforce Sunday laws is based on the idea that this is the mark of the beast. That is facetious. I have sat through long convoluted lectures attempting to prove this. The Bible doesn't say that and it takes a lot of twisting to reach that conclusion. It is a distortion of scripture based on conjecture and a tradition of anti-Catholicism. There is no nefarious plot in Rome to take over the world and make everyone worship the Pope.
Michael, everyone knows it? Everyone knows the EG White was a fraud. Everyone knows that Adventists are...Everyone knows...you don't need proof when blind bigotry will work just as well.
Btw, the US Ambassador is based on the fact that the Pope is Sovereign of the Vatican City State not that he is Bishop of Rome. You might argue that is a legal nicety, but one can argue to not have an Ambassador is simply a symptom of historic anti-Catholicism. Throughout western history the Holy See has had diplomatic relations with many countries. It is older then virtually any other country out there.
this "white guy" stuff
That's what polls show. Sorry, but it seems to be facts. Stating facts is not "playing race cards".
Great line Keafan: "Old white guys from the South". Prior to my hip replacement surgery I played golf on Wednesdays with the old white guys from the South. You are so right! But the thing that amazed me is that the old white guys on the riding mowers were also Rush and O'Reilly fans. I also observed that the more religion they had the more Rush and O'Reilly they were. I did finally find three other Old White Guys who preferred CNN. Imagine Ted Turner as a liberal. Jane Fonda must have had some influence on him for the good(!).
It is very difficult, and increasingly so, to report without editorializing. Tom
P.S. I like your math.
I would like to comment on the SDA way of living in a state of constant panic for the end of days
I grew up within the SDA community, and I know this is a very dysfunctional world view to grow up with
I have to ask what does any of the paranoia have to do with being Christian- what could the SDA community have accomplished if this energy had been focused in a different direction?
Perhaps we need to ask the old question- what would Jesus do? Perhaps he would have spent his time healing the sick and spreading the message of love and peace- oh yeah he already did that! What are we doing?
Here is also an interesting post at this new Adventist Blog on Adventism and Michael Jackson
http://blog.adracorruptionwatch.info/2009/10/25/pastor-doug-batchelors-c...
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