It's about time.

Bonnie, Thank you for sharing these wonderful messages.

I was present in New Orleans. The evening was winsome, the conversation encouraging.

Roy Gane, who would by no means accept everything that I uphold, has spent a weekend with me and my theological colleagues at Kettering College of Medical Arts. Along with Conni, his wife, and several other quite conservative friends, who were also present on that weekend, he's spent a Saturday evening in my home.

As it was wonderful then for us to dwell together in unity, it was wonderful to do so in New Orleans.

As you point out, Bonnie, Roy spoke these words that night:

The Spirit enables the community of God "to be loving and united, as his praying disciples became after his resurrection."

I pray--never in optimism, but always in hope--that the Spirit may enable us to be so loving and so united.

Chuck Scriven

Sounds like the eccumenical movement to me. "Let's set aside doctrine for the sake of a "loving" unity where everyone is accepted in the name of "love".

The fact is this. Anything less than pure doctrine is immoral. And it leads to immorality. Historic Adventism was and is built on sound doctrine. There is no compromise on this issue and principle. Not now. Not ever.

And while we and all Christians should be able to dialogue about the bible and Christian faith, unless the intent is to "convert" people to sound bible doctrine, it is Satanic.

This is non-negotiable.

Bill Sorensen

The greatest command is the command to love. Would the greatest sin be refusal to obey the greatest command? Doctrine......????

Maybe Bonnie could tell us what she means by social justice and whether these are the exact words used by the President of ATS.

Incidentally, ATS has been dallying with a more liberal approach for some time. It is not, IMO, the ATS as it was originally conceived. "...Adventism was and is built on sound doctrine." And if it ever ceases to be then we are indeed desolate spiritually. ATS is not the SDA church; it is an independent organization.

For Bill Sorensen:

Bill, I have watched your posts clear back to the days of the Adventist Forum on Compuserve--what has it been, at least a dozen years? I think your trumpet does have a certain distinctive sound.

You could really help me out by saying a bit more. How does your certainty, and somewhat bombastic communication work out in real life when you're off the internet? Is your communication like this in the family, at work, in church, etc.? If so, how does it work out for the bonds of love? Or perhaps this is more of an online communication style?

I wish you no ill, I simply want to understand the man behind the keyboard.

Shalom.

-- Tim

LOL Bill, you tell them.

To bad you weren't there to set them all straight.
I am glad you are now here with us. We need your purity.

Heaven knows, we would hate to have dialogue amongst the brethern.

You are the first guy I have seen who wants Adventist theologians to "convert" Adventist theologians.

I fail to see how respecting each other's viewpoints, without the intent to "convert", is SATANIC!

Again, glad to are here, and thank you for bringing your moral compass to guide us all!!

I wonder if in Bill Sorensen's zeal for doctrinal 'purity' he would expect and prefer the ATS & ASRS to behave more like Kilkenny cats than engage in respectful dialog.

There once were two cats of Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
'Til (excepting their nails
And the tips of their tails)
Instead of two cats there weren't any.

Adventism has already had way too much experience with this model.

I posted my response on my blog:
http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2009/12/adventism-and-social-justice.html

Ron

I commend any effort to bring foster love and unity—if done on biblical grounds. Yet not everything that is called love is truly love. If the greatest commandment is to love, we ought to discover from the Bible what is love. And not everything called unity is unity. If we're seeking unity, as Jesus enjoined us to do, we ought to discover from Scripture what sort of unity He's calling us to foster.

I suspect that many calls for unity are calls to lay aside meaningful differences. I get the impression that when my more "progressive" Adventist brothers and sisters call for unity, they're asking us more "traditional" Adventists to discard central biblical teachings in order to conform to their socially acceptable normative view. How about a call for unity based on Scripture?

I may be among those some of you consider "progressive."

My whole life is about calling us BACK to Scripture, and away from thoughtless obeisance to tradition.

Tradition is rich and wonderful, but it's authority must be put in perspective.

Anyone who prays, it's been said, is a theologian. If that is so, then the job of ALL of us who pray is to approach tradition with a certain Bible-based suspicion.

Otherwise, we are bound to stray into the kind of pride and narrow-mindedness that comes in play whenever ANYONE THINKS THEY KNOW THE PURE DOCTRINE, and people who differ from them must simply be dismissed.

Unless you have the God's-view, you don't know pure doctrine. No one does, except God. Adventism is doomed if the poison of arrogance continues to keep us in our ruts--and to divide us from one another.

Chuck Scriven

Most of what poses as "Christanity" today is built on a "false dilemma". The incessant playing off love against doctrine is the work of the devil from the beginning. As though love somehow transcends the law in its codefied form.

The reformation built its theology on the theory that spirit (love) and form (law) always are in perfect agreement. In which case, there is no such thing as law without love nor visa versa. Apparently, modern Adventism has abandon this reformation principle and adopted the new apostate Protestant idea that we can seperate law and gospel with the gospel being superior to the law.

The fact is, if we would hold one above the other, we must necessarily hold the law above love. For no one can define nor determine what love is unless we "try the spirits" to see if they are in harmony with the law.

Love can not be defined apart from the law of God. Apparently most people think otherwise. A new "spirit ethic" is becoming popular in the world where love follows its own course.

This is the essence of Roman Catholic theology. Where it is assumed that the Spirit working in and through the church transcends the clear word of God. The church, under the ministry of the Spirit, has the authority to change the bible and since the Spirit is infallible, this means the church is infallible.

Adventism is not far from this idea and theory. For instance, when "the church" (Adventism) decided to ordain women as bishops and elders in opposition to the clear testimony of the bible, it was implied that somehow "the gospel" gives the church the ability and authority to abandon clear biblical exhortations for a "higher enlightenment" and superior spirituality.

The church leadership is in the process of commiting the unpardonable sin. They may repent. But history doesn't give us much hope that such will be the case.

God's people will cling solely to the bible as the only rule of faith and practice. The Holy Spirit always creates the Christian community by way of the bible. And nothing transcends this reality. The bible is so "dumb down" in the SDA church today, it hardly has any real viable authority in the church.

"The church has decided" has taken the place of "the word of God says".

For the one who asked. My personal life is far less confrontational unless I am personally challenged. I say little at church. Although, the class teacher often asks me my opinion on some concept being discussed. I don't monopolize the conversation or discussion. But they know what I think of the "celebration movement" in Adventism.

I have a jail ministry every Sabbath. The bible and the historic SDA message is confrontational enough in itself. Those who hear often thank me for what they hear.

I always tell them that no church is without error and this includes the SDA church. Since I am a SDA, they are surprised that I would tell them this.

My theme is, Matt 24:15. When you see the antichrist in the church, you can know the end is near. And this includes my church.

Have a good Sabbath
Keep the faith

Bill Sorensen

Great Bill

I never could understand why the Seventh-day Adventist Church always based its outreach on some esoteric plumbing of Apocalyptics.

Christianity at its heart is an ecumenical ministry of both physical and spiritual wholeness. I recall the motto at Loma Linda "To Make Man Whole!" It take a whole man! One transformed by the only Whole Man!.

My Uncle Harry was first elder and treasurer of the First Methodist Church of Holland, Michigan during the Great Depression. I have watched him make up food baskets to deliver to homes he had personally check out the financial needs. His thoughts were: 1. confirm the need. 2. address the need in the most directly usable form. 3. Don't encourage prodigality by just throwing money at the problem. 4. Go on Christ's errands personally.

Uncle Harry became the most trusted man in Holland, Michigan.
Rep. Gerald Ford personally sought him out and asked Uncle Harry to serve as Post Master of Holland, Michigan.

My parents were cut from the same tree--it never was an Adventist thing with them, it always was the right thing, the Christian thing!

I would like to see an audited report of the use of Ingathering Funds just for starters. Tom

Sorensen, the Reformation was 500 years ago.

1844 was over 150 years ago.

Even Brinsmead's zenith is long past.

Where is God now?

Maggie

You didn't ask me. But a story: A husband and wife were taking a Sunday drive in the mountains watching the fall colors in the trees. The wife said: "Honey, why don't we sit together like we used to?" After a moment of silence, the husband replied. "Well, I haven't moved!"

God is in His Heaven, and He sends His Holy Spirit to guide, provoke, and to abide with us. I don't pray on my knees anymore, two hip replacements have changed that. I find God as a close friend through Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior: who sends His Spirit to confirm His eternal loving watch care of me and my own. I talk with Him in praise, in repentance, in petition, and in humility, nightly and throughout the day as challenges face me and my extended family and known acquaintances. May I say: I and my family have been blessed both in Adventism and without: there is a wide circle of solid Christian leaders outthere. I praise their names as I do those Seventh-day Adventist Christians that have matured my Fatih.

The primary point is that neither Jesus oor the Holy Spirit are an institutional proprietary gift. Regards.
Tom

Maggie said....
" Brinsmead's zenith is long past."

Brinsmead never reached his "zenith", Maggie.

He was a reformer who lost his way. No one could know all the reasons. I would suspect that he learned so much so fast he could not digest it all and finally fell victum to his own ego. No one is exempt.

Today, the church has opted for a pre 1888 view that everyone up until that time was a legalist. And now "the church" is the "highly enlighten" community that has gone far beyond historic Adventism and even EGW.

Having sold this basic lie to the church community in many forms and ideas that even the members are not aware of, they advocate apostate Protestantism with some "new gospel" that has no affinity to scripture.

If you keep telling people long enough that they are not saved by keeping the law, without any distinction between a believer or an unbeliever, you eventually remove any moral imperative to keep the law of God.

Worse yet, you must convince people that any emphasis on obedience that implies a salvational aspect, is either an unbeliever or a poor deluded believer who thinks they can merit heaven by keeping God's law.

And this is how the law is being attack for several decades in the SDA church. Is the law "salvational"? Absolutely, if not, why keep it at all?

Can an unbeliever keep the law? NO. Can a "believer" merit heaven by keeping the law? NO. But just because a person can not merit heaven by obedience to the law, it does not concluded that obedience to the law is not salvational.

Even the statement, "We are saved to obey the law, and do not obey the law to be saved", is false. Unless you qualify this as an unbeliever.

A believer is saved to obey the law, and.....they are saved by obeying the law. It is not an either/or concept. But if the church can make it an either/or concept, they can attack the law and claim anyone who advocates obedience as the condition of salvation is a legalist.

It is a false seperation of law and gospel in a non-biblical context. EGW would certainly not endorse the modern explanation, even by many so-called conservative evangelists. But the fear of being called a legalist is so strong, they re-define the full dynamic of law and gospel to patronize apostate Protestant doctrine.

When Paul says, "By the deeds of the law, shall no 'flesh' be justified", he is simply saying, no one without Christ can be justified by obedience to the law. But to claim a believer's works play no part in his justification is blatantly false.

James is too clear to be misunderstood. And the whole bible covers this issue again and again.

The church must again present the truth "as it is in Jesus" and quit patronizing false doctrine. The reformation was not whether works play a role in justification, but, can a believer merit heaven and the favor of God by good works?

You don't hear sermons on the investigative judgment as presented by EGW in the Great Controvery. The reason is, they can't harmonize their false views with her clear bible presentation. Go read the chapter "Facing life's Record" for yourself, and you see immeadiately why they can not preach from her presentation. It does not harmonize with their false view.

And false doctrine always leads to immorality. "By their fruits, ye shall know them." And the church today is so immoral you have to close your eyes to the blatant evil they advocate not to see this reality.

Keep the faith

Bill Sorensen

Bill

There is plenty of evidence that Robert Brinsmead lost his way because of his own ego. He played a small part in the book The Shaking of Adventism--His series on the reformational doctrine was his best effort. The problem never was Brinsmead. The problem was the ego of the leadership of the General Conference and their reactive response to: Answers to Question on Doctrine, Marikay Silver, Robert Brinsmead, Davenport, Lead by the gang at the Review and Neal Wilson a price the Church is still paying.

Now Spectrum is pulling their chain on pet issues.
Tom

Bonnie Dwyer:

Both presidents told heartbreaking stories as they engaged the Biblical texts in their official presidential addresses.

I submit that there is no other viable way to engage Biblical texts but by way of heartbreaking stories.

To quote James Russell Lowell again:

"The intellect has only one failing, which, to be sure, is a very considerable one. It has no conscience."

"It is only the intellect that can be thoroughly and hideously wicked. It can forget everything in the attainment of its ends."

Engaging the Scriptures via the intellect leads to witch trials and burnings of every sort. Is this debatable?

Truth can only be learned by heart, and the heart feels. As Ellen White said:

All true obedience comes from the heart.

It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses.

The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.
--Desire of Ages, 668.3

"The truth as it is in Jesus" is only experiential. The moment we make it merely conceptual it dies the death.

God is developing Living Letters, not intellectual doctrine-spouting automatons, focused on whiting their own sepulchres, as were the Pharisees.

You are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Our heartbreaking stories put us all on the level ground around the Cross, to the extent that we consent to feel them.

He shall see of the travail of His soul and shall be satisfied when we learn to travail with Him.

Ellen White:

Encourage the expression of love toward God and toward one another.

The reason why there are so many hardhearted men and women in the world is that true affection has been regarded as weakness, and has been discouraged and repressed.

The better nature of these persons was stifled in childhood; and unless the light of divine love shall melt away their cold selfishness, their happiness will be forever ruined.

If we wish our children to possess the tender spirit of Jesus, and the sympathy that angels manifest for us, we must encourage the generous, loving impulses of childhood.
--Desire of Ages, 516.2

Zdravo Plantak:

I believe that our stories shape us and they give us theological center and meaning.

Roy Gane:

...relational, ethical restoration to harmony with God and his principles.

This post augurs hope for my church, and for me. The so-called "social justice" ethos is at the very heart of the Good News about our God, especially as seen in Jesus of Nazareth.

Actually, as described in Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), this merciful justice is the one and only "pure doctrine" of the "end times."

I'm always heartened when Adventists step beyond absurd boundaries fashioned by labels of "conservative" and "liberal." (The right answer to the question Was Jesus a conservative or a liberal? is Yes.)

Thank you, Roy and Zack, for stepping out courageously with trusting love. There are more than 7,000 of us who have your back.

"Bill

There is plenty of evidence that Robert Brinsmead lost his way because of his own ego. He played a small part in the book The Shaking of Adventism--His series on the reformational doctrine was his best effort."

That may be, Tom. But many felt that the book "Shaking of Adventism" was primarily the work of Brinsmead and they put Paxton's name on it for marketing reasons. Certainly, Paxton was highly influenced by RDB. And visa versa.

Few people know or realize that much of modern Adventism, both positive and negative, are by way of the influence of RDB. His influence has molded the church whether the leaders will admit it or not.

Pfandl wrote a work on original sin and the SDA preception of it. He never mentioned Brinsmead, who was the primary agitator of the doctrine in Adventism long before the people Pfandl mentioned. Modern theologians avoid mentioning him at any and all cost. And no one dare tackle his influence and contribution to bible Adventism.

They can ignore him if they want to. But it won't change the fact the he stimulated the controvery over law and gospel in Adventism that has led us to where we are today. Again, as I said, both positive and negative.

He wasn't right in every idea or conclusion. But he was light years ahead of those who opposed him and did all they could to destory his influence in the church.

Had the church been open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in light of the "Brinsmead agitation", we may have seen the work finished long before now and Jesus could have come and would have. In this sense, his ministry was a parallel to Jones and Waggoner. Who, by the way, were in many ways novices and poor theologians at best.

None the less, they saw something in and about the gospel that needed to be emphasized in the early church movement.

Those who think EGW endorsed the Jones and Waggoner theology have not done their home work. She saw clearly that both sides were in need of a clearer understanding of salvational issues in relation to law and gospel.

The devil has triumphed again and again through out salvation history. And that has been reflected and is being reflected in Adventism today. None the less, he will certainly and eventually be exposed once and for all by way of the true bible message. And those who truly desire truth will know what it is and how it is applied.

God has the ability to wait. We aren't very good at it. The fact is, all of us are novices on some level. But we think we are not, and this creates the major problem. If we think we know, when we don't, it creates a barrier that can become impassable. Some will eventually get past it, and the truth will triumph.

Or, as EGW has well said, "The truth will triumph, and we mean to triumph with it."

Hopefully, this is every Christian's commitment inspite of our slow comprehension of the truth itself.

Keep the faith

Bill Sorensen

Chris:

Actually, as described in Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), this merciful justice is the one and only "pure doctrine" of the "end times."

Matthew 5:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, Chris.

Choose.

"Heart-wrenching stories" can be retold for any religion, and there is long history of using this method to reach people. Whether Adventist, Baptist, or Roman Catholic, these specific religions are not essential to the story. Elie Wiesel is the paragon of such true events that question God's authority.

There is a distinct pattern in the use of emotional messages: watch and listen to any TV preacher to get the full use of such emotion. What has this to do with Adventism? These stories could easily be used for most Christian denominations. Equal ones are from Afghan women's experience, women in the Congo and those were not used to "sell" a religion.

Elaine, as you know, the Buddha's first Noble Truth is that life means suffering.

To be alive means to suffer heartbreaking things, no one is exempt, and that suffering inevitably shapes how we view life and God.

I did not infer that the two theological society presidents were trying to "sell" their viewpoints with heartbreaking stories.

When we speak to each other from that authentic ground, when we can feel our own suffering, then we can empathize with the sufferings of others.

Communication from that authentic level has the potential to be redemptive, whereas endless merely intellectual conversation seems to take us nowhere.

I'm not disagreeing that propagandists use emotion to manipulate people. I'm just saying that I see hope for Adventism when people start getting real with each other.

Maggie, um, choose what? What I "bind"?

I'm not following you.

Chris, I'm the first to admit that I don't have a theological leg to stand on.

What I'm saying is this: I don't think the Bible is linear and logical. I think the Bible, like life itself, is a spiritual development device of unfathomable depth.

Jesus says, if you want to be the children of your Father in heaven, then love your enemies.

He also talks about the sheep and the goats and eternal punishment for not...loving.

How does one logically reconcile these concepts?

In a nutshell (where I live), here's what logically works for me--for my mind and "heart." I wrote this in the chapter "The Worst Lie Ever Told" in my book _Searching for a God to Love_.

"The first chapter of Romans explains what God does when He is wrathful: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth." [We had better not "suppress the truth," eh?] How is the wrath revealed?

"Verse 24: 'God gave them up . . .'

"Verse 26: 'God gave them up . . .'

"Verse 28: 'God gave them up . . .'

"The wrath of God the Father is seen most clearly against His Son on the cross, where Jesus carried the sins of the world. How did God treat the Sinbearer? God gave Him up. . . . The worst thing and the best thing God can do to us is to let us have our way. After teaching us, disciplining us, warning us, pleading with us, and continuing to love us ('How can I give you up?' He says), God allows us to sleep in the beds we've made. Wouldn't any good parent do the same?

"Though admittedly uncertain about its physical nature, C. S. Lewis often writes about hell, including this selection from The Problem of Pain: 'In the long run the anser to all those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question: "What are you asking God to do?" to wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But He has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does.

"Lewis sees in the lost (those who 'reject everything that is not simply themselves') an overwhelming arrogance and desire for control. They do not wish the universe to be free. Instead, as he declares in The Great Divorce, 'the demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned [is] that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven.' The universe would never be safe."

Logically and simply, this view of "eternal punishment" works for me. Experientially and deeply, I trust God to deal with ultimate realities.

Does God need to be "wrathful" to "give them up," Chris?

Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exodus 15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

Exo 22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

Numbers 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

Num 16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.

Deuteronomy 9:7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.

Deu 9:8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

Deu 9:22 And at Taberah, and at Massah, and at Kibrothhattaavah, ye provoked the LORD to wrath.

Deu 11:17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

1 Samuel 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

2 Kings 22:13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

2 Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

2Ki 23:26 Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.

2Chronicles 12:7 And when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak.

2Ch 28:11 Now hear me therefore, and deliver the captives again, which ye have taken captive of your brethren: for the fierce wrath of the LORD is upon you.

2Ch 28:13 And said unto them, Ye shall not bring in the captives hither: for whereas we have offended against the LORD already, ye intend to add more to our sins and to our trespass: for our trespass is great, and there is fierce wrath against Israel.

2Ch 29:8 Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes.

2Ch 29:10 Now it is in mine heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that his fierce wrath may turn away from us.

2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

2Ch 32:25 But Hezekiah rendered not again according to the benefit done unto him; for his heart was lifted up: therefore there was wrath upon him, and upon Judah and Jerusalem.

Job 19:29: But now, be afraid of the sword--- the sword that brings God's wrath on sin, so that you will know there is one who judges.

Job 21:20: Let sinners bear their own punishment; let them feel the wrath of Almighty God.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Psa 38:1 A Psalm of David, to bring to remembrance. O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Psa 88:16 Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off.

Psa 89:46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psa 90:7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.

Psa 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

Psa 90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.

Psa 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Psa 106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Isa 9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

Jer 7:29 Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Jer 21:5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jer 44:8 In that ye provoke me unto wrath with the works of your hands....

Jer 50:13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Lam 2:2 The Lord hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.

Lam 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Eze 7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

Eze 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Eze 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Hos 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Does God love His enemies, as Jesus admonishes us to do, that we may be the children of our Father in heaven?

http://www.amazon.com/review/R165XAN4VUDK0V/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm

So glad we have Jesus for the purest picture.

"So glad we have Jesus for the purest picture."

So the picture of God is less pure?

That would be fine, except for the Christain Trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is God. How does that compute?

It is very easy to believe the Jesus pictured in the NT is the one we worship, but in the Lord's Prayer it is "Our Father" to who is that addressed?

So glad we have Jesus for the purest picture.

Chris, that's why I posted all those "wrath" verses above (sorry for the length, web eds).

There's plenty of wrath, weeping and gnashing of teeth in the New Testament, even in Jesus own words, and those were just hastily gathered verses.

I'm not sure why, based on the Bible, we should think Jesus differs from the Old Testament God, or that the Old Testament is an impure picture of God, while the New Testament is a "purer picture." It doesn't come across that way to me, though I understand the impetus to see it that way.

The wrath of God stretches from the Pentateuch to the Apocalypse, and Ellen White chimes in with things like, "God's wrath against sin and the punishment for sin must be exhausted."

It is inescapable. God is a wrathful God, according to the Bible and Ellen White.

God is also loving, according to the Bible and Ellen White.

My friends on www.heavenlysanctuary.com went to a lot of trouble trying to redefine God's wrath, but were not happy when I posted all those point-blank wrath verses.

I think it's very clear that all those verses cannot just be semantically dispatched with big theological words. I simply do not believe it's possible to make an intellectual system in which we attempt to reconcile these wildly differing "sides" of God without doing violence to our spirits and our social order. All the big theological words in the world won't help.

We are justly horrified by the violence attributed to God in the Bible.

So right about now, I think, would be a good time to go reread Bonnie Dwyer's blog above.

See how far we've come in our intuition and traditions about God?

We have in many ways transcended the Bible in history - we no longer preach pro-slavery sermons from the Bible, we no longer murder "witches."

I think Bonnie's blog demonstrates how far Adventists have come in intuiting a good, forgiving and gentle God.

If conservative Adventists like Gane can pull that kind of a God from the Old Testament, it is a testimony to the 'heliotropic' attraction the human heart has for the living God, much more than the intrinsic truth found in the Bible, it seems to me.

I especially like this quote from Plantac:

“My difficulty with this picture was that I always thought of it in terms of post-eschaton and therefore could not reconcile it with the invitation to the moral community of Christ here and now,” he said. “And yet, what eschatological living urges is to take seriously the aspirations of the new Jerusalem and project it to the eschatological living today, that living that is informed by what is soon to come.”

He continued, “I have become fully convinced that the biblical imagery of the leaves that are given for the healing of the nations in Revelation 22:2 are indeed leaves that must be already applied to our eschatological living here and now.

I would take this one step further than Plantac and say that without "eschatological living here and now" we'll be celebrating the 200th, 300th, 400th anniversary of the Great Disappointment with no cloud the size of a man's hand in sight.

I further suggest that when we apply "eschatological living here and now," we'll realize with great chagrin how naive we've been all along to transfer all our hopes to the future when there is so much creative work to do now, and that this has been our purpose from the beginning; this is the meaning of Incarnation.

And in Plantac's next paragraph, please note the sea change in eschatological focus - instead of focusing on "the destruction of the wicked" and saving our own hides from the Lake of Fire:

And I have no doubt that the image is linked to the previous passages in the prophetic literature and to several other metaphors used to call a community of God-fearers to a prophetic living laden with social justice and concerned with the under-privileged and the most vulnerable.”

The Kingdom of God has always been among us. We have fallen asleep in hell.

"I took my stand in the midst of humanity, and I wept for them, for they came into the world blind, and they seek to leave the world blind."
--Jesus, in The Gospel of Thomas:

When Jesus is asked in The Gospel of Thomas, "When will Heaven come?" He says, "It won't come by waiting for it, because Heaven is spread out upon the earth but people don't see it."

Maggie, you are so right: the consistent projection of a future and constant looking at the past have left us with nothing for the present. No one can live except in the present, and any religion that puts all its emphasis on either its past or projection into a future is devoid of doing anything of worth in the here and now. When any group is intensely focusing on their soon-coming kingdom in the sky, there is no reason to help others with the problems of hunger, poverty, sickness or lack of education. The only good we will ever be able to do is during our lifetime, not in the past or future.

Maggie and Elaine,

I emphatically agree with the emphasis of your most recent post here, and have preached and written often in a similar vein. No need to try to convince me. That focus on doing present good, of course, is also what keeps me from posting more often. "The kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power" (1 Cor. 4:20, RSV). One more addition, with a smile:

So glad we have Jesus for the purest picture.

We can only do good with our hands and money, not with our speech?

Chris, is there not much power for good in dialogue? Is not life, as well as death, in the power of the tongue?

Ah! Maggie's brilliance always brings us back down to earth, the only place we have: "The future's not ours to see, que sera, sera"

Alas...if only I lived "back down on earth," Elaine!

Still workin' on that "realized eschatology" bidness....

Say, do you think Chris would approve of our Facebook time as...never mind....

OTOH....

Apocalyptic eschatology is world-negation stressing imminent divine intervention: we wait for God to act;

Sapiential eschatology is world-negation emphasizing immediate divine imitation: God waits for us to act.

-—John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus: Original Sayings and Earliest Images

Maybe George Knight has a point....???

Is there a way to avoid "world negation?"

http://mysticalseeker.blogspot.com/2006/09/god-is-waiting-for-us-to-act....

http://www.lyon.edu/webdata/groups/rph/rph325/Kingdom.pdf

As ever, we must define terms and determine context. "Talk" in 1 Cor. 4 is apparently the antithesis of powerful or efficacious discourse as modeled by Roy and Zack above.

Paul's "talk" here is powerless yammering: viz., ineffectual, senseless, soulless, ignorant, arrogant, whining, gum-flapping, clamorous, twittering twaddle.

(Much like my post, perhaps.)

A Dios!

"So much of Christianity over the centuries has been wrapped up in theologies about Jesus and claims about his birth, resurrection, and presumed divinity, that it has forgotten what it was that he sought to do in his life. His radical message of egalitarianism, of living the Kingdom of God that is here with us if we only choose to allow it, remains as important and valid today as it was two millennia ago. God is still waiting for us to act, to bring about the Kingdom of God."

From the mysticalseeker given by Maggie, above.

Isn't this what was meant by Luk 17:21: "The kingdom of God is among you"?

I'm still reading Crossan's "The Birth of Christianity" and continue to be enriched by the depth of his thoughts.

Chris, are you leaving? Are we yammering?

But...but...you haven't told me whether or not you believe in sapiential eschatology, which "announces that God has given all human beings the wisdom to discern how, here and now in this world, one can so live that God's power, rule, and dominion are evidently present to all observers. It involves a way of life for now rather than a hope of life for the future!"

[Maggie feeling all insecure] Chris? Chris?

Chris, I apologize if I offended you.

(Do you realize how many Chris Blakes there are on Facebook?)

Hey, Maggie, don't worry--I really don't get offended. Riled, disappointed, frustrated, nonplussed, yes. Offended, no.

Anyway, I'm thigh-deep in Lincoln snowbanks (three public-school snow days this week) and approaching finals (with concurrent student angst), and directing a student-produced magazine and cleaning up after an art and craft benefit for Tiny Hands International, so tuning into the Spectrum blog isn't Top Priority.

Sapiential eschatology, as you define it, feels too constricting to me on many levels. But hey, I wrote about this in the chapter "Heaven Is Not My Home" in my book Searching for a God to Love. (Did I mention I have some in the trunk of my car, for sale after Sabbath. . . ?) In addition, I'm writing a full-length book on a related topic over these next two years, so (spoiler alert!) I don't want to spoil it for everyone. I will say that if this world is all there is, and (as you seem to indicate in another thread) things here and now are basically "all right," I'm not interested.

Today, an 11-year-old Nepalese girl in Mumbai, India, will be raped and tortured 30-40 times. She will endure this treatment tomorrow and next week and next year, just as she has since she was trafficked as a sex slave at age 9. Does she have "the wisdom to discern how, here and now in this world, one can so live that God's power, rule, and dominion are evidently present to all observers"?

Likely we agree on most of this, but nuances matter. I hold to C. S. Lewis' claim that something has gone horribly wrong in the world, that God emphatically asks us to fight nobly against this wrong, that all is most definitely not "all right."

I do concur: What we do here and now does matter for eternity. And for that reason I long for and will work toward ultimate liberation for all.

(I'm not on Facebook so I have no idea except "lots.")

Nicholas Kristof is one of my heroes in his publicizing the plight of millions of children, especially girls, who are sold into white slavery every year.

It is an old problem: poverty sends these young girls into brothels, either to support their parents or because they are doped and hooked on drugs to simply get by in their miserable existence.

He is surely doing God's work as much, probably much more than those Christian missionaries who preach the Bible. By helping the helpless he is most effectively emulating Christ's message to help those who are unable to do so.

Human Rights Watch is a wonderful organization, as are similar ones who aid such folk around the world. For my small $$ donation, I much prefer sending to such organizations than to any organized church. What is the SDA church doing to relieve these poor girls?

Well, Chris, you do have lots on your plate right now, don't you!

I certainly didn't mean to rile, disappoint, frustrate and nonplus (?) you, friend. (I might be guilty of encouraging you to think about things that may be uncomfortable to you.)

I suppose I might have cause to believe that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong with this world, all things considered.

If you surmise that I think sexual abuse and suicide are desirable states of affairs, you misread me, but nothing says you are obligated to spend time better spent elsewhere trying to understand what I'm saying.

If you want to fault me for indifference to the "11-year-old Nepalese girl in Mumbai, India, who will be raped and tortured 30-40 times. She will endure this treatment tomorrow and next week and next year, just as she has since she was trafficked as a sex slave at age 9," you may as well go whole hog and fault God for indifference to that sad state of affairs also, as God has watched it go on in minute detail, multiplied by the millions, for millennia.

Since we're bearing down on the 200th anniversary of the Great Disappointment, I would say a major re-thinking of the eschaton is in order, but if anyone disagrees, may they be blessed.

It seems reasonable to me to infer that we're missing something rather major here.

It also seems to me, from long observation and experience, that whatever we "fight nobly against" just becomes more entrenched, i.e., "fighting nobly against" things is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

As I said, perhaps we're missing something important. Or, as Alden Thomson said,

Who knows how many more surprises there may be in the Bible, surprises I have read over many times, but have never "heard"?
--Escape From the Flames, p. 87

I'd rather not re-think or re-form the Eschaton. I'd prefer for the Eschaton--its nearness and power--to reform me. I want to order my life in such a way that a hunger for souls and a sincere seeking after holiness become the two planks of my existence. It's our first work actually, but you wouldn't know it: "A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work." Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 121
And the Gospel we embrace today is a far cry from the Biblical Gospel--one which both forgives and cleanses, pardons and empowers: "The message proclaimed by the angel flying in the midst of heaven is the everlasting gospel, the same gospel that was declared in Eden when God said to the serpent, 'I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel' [Gen. 3:15]. Here was the first promise of a Saviour who would stand on the field of battle to contest the power of Satan and prevail against him. Christ came to our world to represent the character of God as it is represented in His holy law; for His law is a transcript of His character. Christ was both the law and the gospel. The angel that proclaims the everlasting gospel proclaims the law of God; for the gospel of salvation brings men to obedience of the law, whereby their characters are formed after the divine similitude." {Manuscript Releases, Vol. 17, 7.4}

We have such an incredible balance, and distinctive mission, if we are open to it: "Not one cloud has fallen upon the church that God has not prepared for; not one opposing force has risen to counterwork the work of God but He has foreseen. All has taken place as He has predicted through His prophets. He has not left His church in darkness, forsaken, but has traced in prophetic declarations what would occur, and through His providence, acting in its appointed place in the world's history, He has brought about that which His Holy Spirit inspired the prophets to foretell. All His purposes will be fulfilled and established. His law is linked with His throne, and satanic agencies combined with human agencies cannot destroy it. Truth is inspired and guarded by God; it will live, and will succeed, although it may appear at times to be overshadowed. The gospel of Christ is the law exemplified in character. The deceptions practiced against it, every device for vindicating falsehood, every error forged by satanic agencies, will eventually be eternally broken, and the triumph of truth will be like the appearing of the sun at noonday. The Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in His wings, and the whole earth shall be filled with His glory." {Manuscript Releases, Vol. 17, 10.1}

Maranatha.

These pasting of quotes from EGW are reminiscent of the old jokes told by inmates in prison. Unable to say much, they have their jokes numbered, and all that is necessary to get a laugh is to call out "217" are "43" and they all laugh, as the jokes are memorized and categorized.

When one has no personal opinions, he resorts to other's versions (in this case EGW) to say what he is unable to verbalize. Thinking involves mental stimulation; quoting others extensively is something a child can do. When one's thought processes are so deficient, this is the last resort.