Thank you for your thoughts, Raymond. I, myself, have kind of tired of this whole debate and I don't want to make a huge issue out of it. However, I would just say two things: it is a bit inconsistent to allow women to be associate pastors, but not senior pastors. Let's either allow them to be senior pastors, or not allow them to be associate pastors at all. Maybe this view is a little simplistic, but this is nothing more than a church that is trying to play it both ways.

Secondly, and I know this point is often brought up in opposition to women's ordination, but I just want to make sure we remain faithful to what the Bible is actually saying: Galatians 3:28 is in no way addressing women's ordination, or even coming close to it. The equality that Paul addresses is of salvific concern, not gender roles. The context in which he is writing is justification, and just what role the law has to play in justifying a person. I cringe every time I hear someone utilize this text as sure proof that God wants women to be ordained today.

Thank you for this overview of ordination within and without Seventh-day Adventism. Certainly the trend within Christianity is moving towards genderless credentials and our church is as diverse internally as are the Christian churches in general in our approaches to and degrees of official embrace of women in ministry. There are many denominations who have outright bans on women being elders, some even deacons.

Adventism can proudly say that we have never had a problem as an organization embracing the ministry of women who preach, teach and prophesy (if not ordaning them equally) even if our structures have been lagging (B. Haloviak has written great stuff on the history of our credentials) as local churches move forward.

Many male pastors and professors have returned their credentials or refuse to accept any credential not available to women in addition to advocating their support of genderless credentials. Some of us men facing the prospect of one day being ordained are considering joining them.

Your closing call is an interesting read for me as a man. I would like to think that we as men should feel as responsible for reforming our current state as women. Or, considering the past, more.

Johnny:

I end with, ". . . and we must answer." Meaning that with a united front--both women and men--we can tackle this issue as a church.

While Paul is addressing justification and inclusion in salvation in Galatians 3:28, let's not forget that this is the same Paul who was called and commissioned at the same time that he was saved(i.e. justified) by Christ on the Damascus road. It took the church time to catch up with God on this matter.

My point is that for Paul, the separation of the salvation and the gifts and calling of an individual would be incomprehensible. It is an artificial distinction. His own experience, and the tenor of his writngs mirror this.

For us to say that one can be saved, but then be limited in the exercise of ones gifts and callings from God because of gender, race, class, etc., is to create a distinction between salvation and gifts and callings that flies in the face not only of Gal.3:28, but of Paul's own experience and the greater themes of his writings.

Frank

These arguments point again to the use of the Bible to answer all arguments. When will we begin to realize that ANY book, written nearly two thousand years ago should not answer modern sociological situations which were never faced then? Simply because these situations did not arise then, should we limit our thinking on all problems to the answers found therein?

We do not even follow the NT saying that marriage should only be broken for adultery; there are other reasons often worse than that: abuse, pedophilia of children in the home, and more. We should use our minds and reason that God gave us and stop seeking answers for 21st century problems with first century practices and solutions.

When people blame the "church" for not ordaining women, I am not sure who they are really blaming, or if they know who they are blaming.
When I retired as pastor of a church I conducted a secret poll and asked if they would like to have a woman as their next pastor. No one wanted one. The church I now attend has had three pastors in the last 5 or 6 years. Before selecting a new pastor the Conference Secretary has come to the church and asked the members what kind of pastor they wanted. One criteria mentioned was a woman pastor, but no one wanted one.
Our General Conference President has mentioned that our church is not ready to ordain women pastors. He has also mentioned the problem that our churches do not want woman pastors. What would a conference president do if he has ordained women pastors but no church wants them? No president wants to be in that situation. Does that sound as if we are ready to ordain women pastors?
I am not sure why women want to be ordained pastors. The movement started along with the women's lib movement, and the Devil has used it to greatly curtail soul-winning in the Adventist church. Before that we had many Bible Instructors who won thousands of converts to the church. Most of the famous evangelists would not have been very successful if it hadn't been for the help of the Bible Instructors. Now few conferences have any because young women want to become pastors. As Bible instructors they could do a work which men cannot do. "Through the exercise of womanly tact and a wise use of their knowledge of Bible truth, they can remove difficulties that our brethren cannot meet." EGW Letter EI 142. We need to encourage women to use their gift and become Bible Instructors, where there is a great work waiting for them. They will win far more converts than if they become a pastors. When God wants them to become pastors, I think the Holy Spirit will change the attitude of the church members.

Wayne, you gave what is called in medical practice, an anecdotal response, not a valid survey or study. One swallow does not a summer make.

Yes, there are many churches that are not ready to have a woman pastor, and that should not forced upon them. OTOH, the churches where they have been functioning have certainly welcomed them, and they have been very effective. Also, no church should be forced to accept ANY pastor, man or woman, but in the past, the conference has "sent" pastors to churches with little input from the local congregation. Things are different today, in that the congregation has a much stronger voice.

The church I attend did not allow the conference to choose our pastor, We chose him, in unanimity, even with the president offering several other men to be interviewed. When the local congregation has a voice, then there is much greater receptivitiy and the ability to work with and for the pastor.

For those churches that are both ready and willing for women pastors to their church, why shouldn't they, too, be given a choice?

Just like in the business world before women gained full acceptance, they were viewed warily, but once they became accepted, proved themselves by their ability, not their physical features and ability to make coffee, they have revolutionized the corporate world. The ability to judge one solely on her qualifications and not on gender, adheres to Paul's admonition: "In Christ there is no male or female...." How long will it take for the church to truly act on that principle?

Elaine: I recognize that just two examples don't prove that most churches don't want women pastors, but GC president Jan Paulsen mentioned the same thing when he wrote about the situation. I don't know what he based his information on.
We had a young man in our church who went to California and took a course in giving Bible studies, from one of the self-supporting TV ministries. He came back and the conference took him on to work in a small church. Before long he was winning so many souls that the conference made him the pastor of a church. Maybe that is the way women can become pastors, and get the recognition they deserve.

Wayne, there are many ways to become a pastor. However, I seriously question the longevity of a pastor who has so little education that some of these self-supporting ministries offer. Won't he be limited in the places where he can minister? Many congregtions today, and in California, will be better educated than he is, in the Bible as well as other areas.

Soul-winning abilities are not limited by gender or education. However, the places where they can serve will be limited in the future.

Wayne, your comment that (in your experience) the church wasn't ready for women pastors, so we should not push the issue is reminiscent of the argument given to women when they were clamoring for the vote and to Blacks during the civil rights movement.

I recently re-read Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail (http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html), and he addresses this argument convincingly. I'm tempted to want to excerpt the whole letter, as it's such a brilliant read, but here are a few sentences whose thesis could be applied to this conversation about a difference type of equality.

"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

Always an interesting topic and good to see open debate and study about it. But I cant agree with Elaine and here idea that some how the Bible is not our guide on these subject. Like God was mistaken at the time some how.

Thanks
Patrick Lawrence

Adventist Ark an Adventist myspace alternative.
http://www.adventistark.com

Patrick, surely you know that it was MEN who wrote the Bible, not God. They described and attributed to God their own perceptions of God, and how was he to object?

Is the Bible your guide on polygamy? Jesus never spoke against it. Is the Bible your guide regarding slavery? Jesus never spoke against it.
Are the 600+ laws in the OT your guide today for living? Make sure your clothes are not of mixed materials and you don't plant more than one seed in a field, and that you don't eat the firstfruits of the harvest but dedicate them to God. Do you obey God's command to take the beautiful virigins after battle for your wives? God ordered that. Shall I continue?

I am interested that you say women "want to be pastors".

I know of more than one woman who is working as a pastor, not because she "wants to" but because she believes that is what God has called her to do!

sorry, that last post was in reference to Wayne's first post

I suspect that more women would respond to God's call if they weren't stereo-typed by society to marry, have kids and become a helpmeat. When society is ready to have "pastor's husbands", then maybe we'll see more women in leadership roles.

Given that a large percentage of adventist membership are women, wouldn't it seem logical to have more women pastors to "tend to the flock"?

I don't think it's fair that men get respected enough to go to college to study to be a pastor and enjoy freedom of research and in-depth study, while women are encouraged to go out into the field and become lay preachers to prove they have been called. The intellectual and spiritual nurture that can be enjoyed in a college environment is important for tomorrow's pastors to become intellectual imagineers, disciplined doers and serious students of the bible.

Religious Education does not make you called, but it can call you to God even when you don't feel like it. It is preparing you to be a pastor, but it doesn't make you one. I am in no way underming true evangelistic experience and hard labor. Evangelism involves people.

Yes, a woman or a man cane be so inspired and filled with the holy spirit, such as Ellen G White, but somehow we have lost the concept of true evangelism if we are choosing leaders based on gender.

When asked what program I wanted to study after learning I received a scholarship, I smiled and whispered theology. Immediately, I was pulled aside and "encouraged" to choose another program in which I could earn a living. This, at an adventist college by an adventist pastor. I sure hope the climate has changed by the time I get to apply again.